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Author Topic: A Fourth Baptism  (Read 6252 times)

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Offline InfiniteFaith

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A Fourth Baptism
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2013, 01:28:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Dear InfiniteFaith,

    You didn't respond to this question:

    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith


    “We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared Him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes (Jn. 1:9). Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them . . . those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason, whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 46).


    What is this reason that he is talking about. This is totally subjective.

    All true salvific reason comes from the Holy Ghost, it is called actual grace, and sanctifying grace. And if anyone listens to this voice of reason, they will go get baptized and become Catholics.


    When Christ says "I am the way the truth [logos] and the light". He is referring to that particular verse. If you start questioning some of the teachings of the earliest apostles then that pretty much puts all of their teachings into question.


    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    A Fourth Baptism
    « Reply #16 on: May 11, 2013, 01:32:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    Your interpretation of these quotes is very narrow. I am not saying that you are wrong for viewing it this way. I am just saying I don't agree with your interpretation of these quotes. First of all, there are 4 Baptisms that place people into communion with the Catholic Church on some level. So they are not outside of the Catholic Church if they have received one of these Baptisms. Secondly, I agree with how all Jєωs, heretics, etc. that are outside of the Catholic Church do not see the kingdom of heaven. Its the Jєωs, heretics, etc. who are apart of the Catholic Church that have a chance. They would just have to go through purgatory first. The benefit of being a practicing Catholic is that we have the many graces of the Sacraments. Plus we do not go to purgatory for very long because we are constantly having our sins purged from us if we go to confession/mass every week.


    None of your theories have been declared dogmatically. They are all Fallible.
    See the CI thread in the Crisis in the Church section entitled Why is BOD Left Out of All Dogmatic Decrees?

    Baptism of desire of the Catechumen was not clearly taught by any Father of the Church. See the CI thread in the Crisis in the Church section entitled Fathers Rejected Even Explicit BOD of the Catechumen

    Implicit Faith was not taught by any Father or Saint, and is opposed to the Athanasian Creed and St. Thomas and the Thomists. In other words it has absolutely no tradition whatsoever.

    Athanasian Creed
    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
    42. and shall give account of their own works.
    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.


    If the Catholic Faith says that as long as you imply that you would have been Baptized if you had known better then by practicing another religion (because you didn't know better) you are practicing the Catholic Faith in a sense. The Catholic Faith says that is the minimum requirement.


    Offline bowler

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    A Fourth Baptism
    « Reply #17 on: May 11, 2013, 09:08:10 AM »
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  • The Athanasian Creed is the Catholic faith. Your opinions are just that.

    Offline bowler

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    A Fourth Baptism
    « Reply #18 on: May 11, 2013, 09:11:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    Quote from: bowler
    Dear InfiniteFaith,

    You didn't respond to this question:

    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith


    “We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared Him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes (Jn. 1:9). Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them . . . those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason, whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 46).


    What is this reason that he is talking about. This is totally subjective.

    All true salvific reason comes from the Holy Ghost, it is called actual grace, and sanctifying grace. And if anyone listens to this voice of reason, they will go get baptized and become Catholics.


    When Christ says "I am the way the truth [logos] and the light". He is referring to that particular verse. If you start questioning some of the teachings of the earliest apostles then that pretty much puts all of their teachings into question.


    So far you posted one person making a quote that can be interpreted in many ways. Implicit faith has no foundation in the Fathers whatsoever. The Athanasian Creed is from the Fathers. As a matter of fact implicit faith has no foundation in any Saint or anyone till like 1600 years after Christ.

    Fr. William Jurgens: “… we must stress that a particular patristic text [a particular statement from a father] is in no instance to be regarded as a ‘proof’of a particular doctrine. Dogmas are not ‘proved’ by patristic statements, but by the infallible teaching instruments of the Church. The value of the Fathers and writers is this: that in the aggregate [that is, in totality], they demonstrate what the Church believes and teaches; and again, in the aggregate [that is, in totality], they provide a witness to the content of Tradition, that Tradition which
    is itself a vehicle of revelation.”
     

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A Fourth Baptism
    « Reply #19 on: May 11, 2013, 01:22:31 PM »
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  • This thread is a weak example of how confused laymen get when they
    read about things that they don't understand.  

    So not only the Athanasian Creed but also the Nicene creed - I believe
    in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.  Does it say I believe in three
    baptisms?  or 4? or 7?  No, it says I believe in one baptism.  

    Well what about the other baptisms?  

    Well, the others are not 'baptisms' at all, because they are not sacraments,
    but our kicking them around amounts to acts of presumption regarding the
    infinite mercy and providence of God - that which is God's business and not
    ours.  

    Baptism of desire is not mentioned in Trent, even if a lot of people say it
    is.  The words "baptism of desire" are nowhere to be found in the Council
    of Trent, nor are "baptism of blood."  If you don't believe this, just ask
    any priest this question: "Is baptism of desire a sacrament?"  His answer
    will be, "No, baptism of desire is not a sacrament."  Then ask him "Is
    baptism of blood a sacrament?" He'll tell you, no, it is not.  If he's willing
    to go into any detail, he would perhaps explain that a sacrament is an
    outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace, and Our Lord Jesus Christ
    did not institute so-called baptism of desire or baptism of blood.  What He
    instituted was quite the opposite - the sacrament of Baptism, not an
    implicit virtual pseudo desire for a sacrament.

    What about the good thief on the cross, then?  In case you didn't notice,
    the good thief died on the cross before Baptism was instituted.  A lot of
    people died before Baptism was instituted, including the Holy Innocents.

    He said to go forth and teach all nations everything that He had
    commanded and that those who are baptized and believe will be saved
    and those who believe not will be condemned.  What about those who
    never get to hear about it?  Did Our Lord forget about them?

    Well, if those who never hear about it are saved, then there would be no
    point in going forth to teach all nations, because IF YOU DON'T GO FORTH
    TO TEACH THEM, then they would be saved in their ignorance.  

    Since Our Lord said to go forth and teach, therefore NOT going
    forth to teach is not in conformity with his command.  As such, it is outside
    the Church, where there is no salvation.

    According to B16's hermeneutic of continuity, going forth to teach all
    nations is to be held in the same regard as NOT going forth to teach all
    nations, because that's what you get when you deny the principle of
    non-contradiction.  





    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    A Fourth Baptism
    « Reply #20 on: May 11, 2013, 04:07:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat

    This thread is a weak example of how confused laymen get when they
    read about things that they don't understand.  

    So not only the Athanasian Creed but also the Nicene creed - I believe
    in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.  Does it say I believe in three
    baptisms?  or 4? or 7?  No, it says I believe in one baptism.  

    Well what about the other baptisms?  

    Well, the others are not 'baptisms' at all, because they are not sacraments,
    but our kicking them around amounts to acts of presumption regarding the
    infinite mercy and providence of God - that which is God's business and not
    ours.  

    Baptism of desire is not mentioned in Trent, even if a lot of people say it
    is.  The words "baptism of desire" are nowhere to be found in the Council
    of Trent, nor are "baptism of blood."  If you don't believe this, just ask
    any priest this question: "Is baptism of desire a sacrament?"  His answer
    will be, "No, baptism of desire is not a sacrament."  Then ask him "Is
    baptism of blood a sacrament?" He'll tell you, no, it is not.  If he's willing
    to go into any detail, he would perhaps explain that a sacrament is an
    outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace, and Our Lord Jesus Christ
    did not institute so-called baptism of desire or baptism of blood.  What He
    instituted was quite the opposite - the sacrament of Baptism, not an
    implicit virtual pseudo desire for a sacrament.

    What about the good thief on the cross, then?  In case you didn't notice,
    the good thief died on the cross before Baptism was instituted.  A lot of
    people died before Baptism was instituted, including the Holy Innocents.

    He said to go forth and teach all nations everything that He had
    commanded and that those who are baptized and believe will be saved
    and those who believe not will be condemned.  What about those who
    never get to hear about it?  Did Our Lord forget about them?

    Well, if those who never hear about it are saved, then there would be no
    point in going forth to teach all nations, because IF YOU DON'T GO FORTH
    TO TEACH THEM, then they would be saved in their ignorance.  

    Since Our Lord said to go forth and teach, therefore NOT going
    forth to teach is not in conformity with his command.  As such, it is outside
    the Church, where there is no salvation.

    According to B16's hermeneutic of continuity, going forth to teach all
    nations is to be held in the same regard as NOT going forth to teach all
    nations, because that's what you get when you deny the principle of
    non-contradiction.  






    There is only one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. The other Baptisms do not have this effect. If you receive a Baptism of Desire you would still go to purgatory to pay back your sins since they were not washed away by water.

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    A Fourth Baptism
    « Reply #21 on: May 11, 2013, 04:10:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    Quote from: bowler
    Dear InfiniteFaith,

    You didn't respond to this question:

    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith


    “We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared Him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes (Jn. 1:9). Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them . . . those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason, whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 46).


    What is this reason that he is talking about. This is totally subjective.

    All true salvific reason comes from the Holy Ghost, it is called actual grace, and sanctifying grace. And if anyone listens to this voice of reason, they will go get baptized and become Catholics.


    When Christ says "I am the way the truth [logos] and the light". He is referring to that particular verse. If you start questioning some of the teachings of the earliest apostles then that pretty much puts all of their teachings into question.


    So far you posted one person making a quote that can be interpreted in many ways. Implicit faith has no foundation in the Fathers whatsoever. The Athanasian Creed is from the Fathers. As a matter of fact implicit faith has no foundation in any Saint or anyone till like 1600 years after Christ.

    Fr. William Jurgens: “… we must stress that a particular patristic text [a particular statement from a father] is in no instance to be regarded as a ‘proof’of a particular doctrine. Dogmas are not ‘proved’ by patristic statements, but by the infallible teaching instruments of the Church. The value of the Fathers and writers is this: that in the aggregate [that is, in totality], they demonstrate what the Church believes and teaches; and again, in the aggregate [that is, in totality], they provide a witness to the content of Tradition, that Tradition which
    is itself a vehicle of revelation.”
     


    Actually I posted 2 quotes from Early Church Fathers that hint at the existence of Baptism of Desire and Implied Baptism of Desire. You say that these quotes can be interpreted in many different ways. Please show me other ways that they can be interpreted. Maybe then I will see your point. You quote Fr. Jurgens on this but that could only be an opinion. What he says is not necessarily infallible either.

    Offline saintbosco13

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    A Fourth Baptism
    « Reply #22 on: May 11, 2013, 06:01:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat


    Well, the others are not 'baptisms' at all, because they are not sacraments,
    but our kicking them around amounts to acts of presumption regarding the
    infinite mercy and providence of God - that which is God's business and not
    ours.  

    Baptism of desire is not mentioned in Trent, even if a lot of people say it
    is.  The words "baptism of desire" are nowhere to be found in the Council
    of Trent, nor are "baptism of blood."  If you don't believe this, just ask
    any priest this question: "Is baptism of desire a sacrament?"  His answer
    will be, "No, baptism of desire is not a sacrament."  Then ask him "Is
    baptism of blood a sacrament?" He'll tell you, no, it is not.  If he's willing
    to go into any detail, he would perhaps explain that a sacrament is an
    outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace, and Our Lord Jesus Christ
    did not institute so-called baptism of desire or baptism of blood.  What He
    instituted was quite the opposite - the sacrament of Baptism, not an
    implicit virtual pseudo desire for a sacrament.



    Neil,

    You are incorrect in stating that the Council of Trent Didn't teach baptism of desire. It doesn't have to have the exact phrase "baptism of desire" as you want it to. Here is the quote from it, and also a quote from the catechism from Trent which clearly teach it:

    Council of Trent (16th century): Decree on Justification (Session 6, Chapter 4): And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

    Catechism of the Council of Trent (16th century): "....should any unforeseen accident deprive adults of baptism, their intention of receiving it, and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."  [section on baptism]


    Here are also quotes from Saint Alphonsus and the Catholic Encyclopedia that openly state the Council of Trent teaches baptism of desire. So this Doctor of the Church teaches contrary to what you just said, as does the Catholic Encyclopedia, composed by over 1500 Catholics globally:
     
    St. Alphonsus Ligouri (Moral Theology Manual - 18th century): Bk. 6, no. 95., Concerning Baptism: "baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent"

    Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913): The Baptism of Desire: “This doctrine is set forth clearly by the Council of Trent. In the fourteenth session (cap. iv) the council teaches that contrition is sometimes perfected by charity, and reconciles man to God, before the Sacrament of Penance is received. In the fourth chapter of the sixth session, in speaking of the necessity of baptism, it says that men can not obtain original justice "except by the washing of regeneration or its desire" (voto).




    Offline saintbosco13

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    A Fourth Baptism
    « Reply #23 on: May 11, 2013, 06:09:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith

    If the Catholic Faith says that as long as you imply that you would have been Baptized if you had known better then by practicing another religion (because you didn't know better) you are practicing the Catholic Faith in a sense. The Catholic Faith says that is the minimum requirement.


    It's not that simple. This was once explained to me by a traditional Catholic Bishop in this way:

    In regard to invincible ignorance, one is capable only of establishing the principles. Where the principles take effect only God knows. But in principle there is no limit to it.

    What is necessary and sufficient for invincible ignorance is that, through no fault of his own, the non-Catholic (and this applies to anyone who fits that description) has never had the truth of the Catholic Faith sufficiently explained or presented to him. That someone might know of the Catholic religion, or even what it teaches, does not qualify for having it sufficiently proposed to him.  He must receive a presentation in which he perceives that the Catholic Faith is in fact the religion revealed by God.  The requirements for this presentation can vary from person to person.

    For salvation, the person in invincible ignorance must believe, by divine faith, at least some revealed truths. Which ones these are is disputed among theologians. Furthermore, he must have perfect contrition for any mortal sins which he has committed. He must also, by divine charity, desire to fulfill all the precepts of God. In so doing, he fulfills the condition of desiring and intending to receive, implicitly, the baptism of water.

    These principles apply to all non-Catholics. But, as I said, who achieves baptism of desire, and who achieves salvation, is utterly out of our reach.

    Never forget that justification and salvation are primarily the work of God's grace. If God wants someone, He will bring him in whatever way He wills.

    This doctrine does not in any way justify the Novus Ordo ecuмenism, which sees false religions as being means of salvation. They are not means of salvation, but means of damnation. This is true, first of all, because they were founded by men, and therefore have no title to be instruments of God.   In fact, as religions they do not even exist. Imagine a company claiming to be an airline, but which has no airplanes. So false religions claim to be religions, but have no means of applying the grace of God to men, since they are mere human upstarts with no charter from God to exist.  Secondly, if one embraces their heresies and moral tenets, he goes to hell. They are trains bound for hell.  You get on it, you go to hell. Only those who are in invincible ignorance of their damning effect are immune from guilt for being on the wrong train.

    The Catholic Church is the unique means of salvation. One must belong to the Catholic Church  in some way, at the very least by implicit desire,  in order to obtain salvation.


    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    « Reply #24 on: May 11, 2013, 10:10:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: InfiniteFaith

    If the Catholic Faith says that as long as you imply that you would have been Baptized if you had known better then by practicing another religion (because you didn't know better) you are practicing the Catholic Faith in a sense. The Catholic Faith says that is the minimum requirement.


    It's not that simple. This was once explained to me by a traditional Catholic Bishop in this way:

    In regard to invincible ignorance, one is capable only of establishing the principles. Where the principles take effect only God knows. But in principle there is no limit to it.

    What is necessary and sufficient for invincible ignorance is that, through no fault of his own, the non-Catholic (and this applies to anyone who fits that description) has never had the truth of the Catholic Faith sufficiently explained or presented to him. That someone might know of the Catholic religion, or even what it teaches, does not qualify for having it sufficiently proposed to him.  He must receive a presentation in which he perceives that the Catholic Faith is in fact the religion revealed by God.  The requirements for this presentation can vary from person to person.

    For salvation, the person in invincible ignorance must believe, by divine faith, at least some revealed truths. Which ones these are is disputed among theologians. Furthermore, he must have perfect contrition for any mortal sins which he has committed. He must also, by divine charity, desire to fulfill all the precepts of God. In so doing, he fulfills the condition of desiring and intending to receive, implicitly, the baptism of water.

    These principles apply to all non-Catholics. But, as I said, who achieves baptism of desire, and who achieves salvation, is utterly out of our reach.

    Never forget that justification and salvation are primarily the work of God's grace. If God wants someone, He will bring him in whatever way He wills.

    This doctrine does not in any way justify the Novus Ordo ecuмenism, which sees false religions as being means of salvation. They are not means of salvation, but means of damnation. This is true, first of all, because they were founded by men, and therefore have no title to be instruments of God.   In fact, as religions they do not even exist. Imagine a company claiming to be an airline, but which has no airplanes. So false religions claim to be religions, but have no means of applying the grace of God to men, since they are mere human upstarts with no charter from God to exist.  Secondly, if one embraces their heresies and moral tenets, he goes to hell. They are trains bound for hell.  You get on it, you go to hell. Only those who are in invincible ignorance of their damning effect are immune from guilt for being on the wrong train.

    The Catholic Church is the unique means of salvation. One must belong to the Catholic Church  in some way, at the very least by implicit desire,  in order to obtain salvation.



    Yeah I agree with you. It certainly is not the false religion that saves. I was trying to say if they practice a false religion out of ignorance then that is what implies they would have been baptized if they had known better.

    Offline bowler

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    A Fourth Baptism
    « Reply #25 on: May 12, 2013, 05:39:41 AM »
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  • Here is another example of where a council could have easily defined baptism of desire, but again, the Holy Ghost did not:

    From "Is Feeneyism Catholic" by Fr. Laisney p. 77, he quotes St. Alphonsus Ligouri:

    "baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam "de ####o non baptizado" and of the Council of Trent"


    This quote from Fr. Laisney's book ONCE AGAIN is not complete. Here is the full text of what St. Alphonsus said (I've blued the part that was left out by Fr. Laisney):

    St. Alphonsus: “Baptism by fire, however, is the perfect conversion to God through contrition, or the love of God above all things, with the explicit desire, or implicit desire, for the true river of baptism. As the Council of Trent says  (Sess. 14, Chap. 4), it takes the place of the latter with regard to the remission of the guilt, but does not imprint a character nor take away all the debt of punishment. It is called fire because it is made under the impulse of the Holy Spirit, who is given this name… Thus it is of faith (de fide) that men are saved even by the baptism of fire, according to c. Apostolicam, de pres. non bapt. and the Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 4, where it is said that no one can be saved without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

    The author, Fr. Francois Laisney, does not include St. Alphonsus’ erroneous reference to Sess. 14, Chap. 4 of Trent when Laisney quotes the passage from St. Alphonsus on baptism of desire!  This is incredibly dishonest, of course, but Fr. Laisney of the SSPX omits it because he knows that St. Alphonsus was wrong in referencing Trent in that way; and, therefore, he knows that it pokes a big hole in his argument in favor of baptism of desire based on the obviously fallible St. Alphonsus.



    There are errors in the very paragraph in which it is stated. To substantiate his position on baptism of desire, St. Alphonsus first makes reference to Sess. 14, Chap. 4 of the Council of Trent.

    St. Alphonsus says:
    “As the Council of Trent says (Sess. 14, Chap. 4), it takes the place of the latter with regard to the remission of the guilt, but does not imprint a character nor take away all the debt of punishment.”

    This is completely wrong. Sess. 14, Chap. 4 of the Council of Trent does not say that baptism of desire “takes the place of the latter (i.e., baptism) with regard to the remission of the guilt,” as St. Alphonsus claims. Let’s look at the passage:

    Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 14, Chap. 4, on the Sacrament of Penance: “The Council teaches, furthermore, that though it sometimes happens that this contrition is perfect because of charity and reconciles man to God, before this sacrament is actually received, this reconciliation must not be ascribed to the contrition itself without the desire of the sacrament which is included in it.”

    The Council here defines that perfect contrition with the desire for the Sacrament of Penance can restore a man to the grace of God before the Sacrament is received. It says nothing of baptism! St. Alphonsus’ very premise – that baptism of desire is taught in Sess. 14, Chap. 4 – is erroneous. Trent says nothing of the sort. If the very premises upon which he argued baptism of desire were flawed and erroneous, how can one be bound to the conclusions that flow from such false premises?

    Another related subject

    Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, Sess. 14, Chap. 2, On Penance: “This sacrament of Penance, moreover, is necessary for the salvation of those who have fallen after baptism, as baptism itself is necessary for those not yet regenerated.”

    Now, baptism of desire advocates will also quote Sess. 14, Chap. 2 of Trent to try to prove the point that people who have fallen into mortal sin can be justified and saved without the Sacrament of Penance by perfect contrition, and therefore people can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism, since Trent says that the necessity of the Sacrament of Penance for those in mortal sin is the same as the necessity of Baptism. But this argument also falters because just two Chapters later the Council of Trent explicitly states that one can be justified without the Sacrament of Penance by perfect contrition plus the desire for it. One cannot take one chapter of Trent out of context.



    Pope Julius III, Council of Trent, Sess. 14, Chap. 4, On Penance: “The Council teaches, furthermore, that though it sometimes happens that this contrition is perfect because of charity and reconciles man to God, before this sacrament is actually received, this reconciliation must not be ascribed to the contrition itself without the desire of the sacrament which is included in it.”



    The Council of Trent clearly teaches three times that the grace of the Sacrament of Penance can be attained by the desire for the Sacrament of Penance (twice in Sess. 6, Chap. 14; and once in Sess. 14, Chap. 4), while it nowhere teaches the false doctrine of baptism of desire.


    Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 14 on Justification: “Hence it must be taught that the repentance of a Christian after his fall is very different from that at his baptism, and that it includes not only a cessation from sins… but also the sacramental confession of the same, at least in desire and to be made in its season, and sacerdotal absolution, as well as satisfaction by fasting, almsgiving, prayers, and other devout exercises of the spiritual life, not indeed for the eternal punishment, which is remitted together with the guilt either by the sacrament or the desire of the sacrament, but for the temporal punishment…”



    The fact that Trent clearly teaches at least three times that the desire for the Sacrament of Penance is efficacious for Justification, while it nowhere teaches baptism of desire, should tell baptism of desire advocates something; namely, that baptism of desire is not true.


    And this is why the statement by Trent in Sess. 14, Chap. 2 on the necessity of the Sacrament of Penance does not equate to Trent’s statements on the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation, because the Council clearly clarifies its meaning on the necessity of the Sacrament of Penance just two Chapters later by defining that perfect contrition restores such a man to Justification without the Sacrament of Penance. While dogmatic canons stand alone, chapters must be taken in their complete context.


    Offline bowler

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    A Fourth Baptism
    « Reply #26 on: May 12, 2013, 05:45:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13

    Council of Trent (16th century): Decree on Justification (Session 6, Chapter 4): And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.


    If that decree taught baptism of desire, then baptism of desire would be dogma.

    That decree is talking about  a living person. It says nothing about a person who dies that way. Moreover, it clearly says "as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

    Nothing clear in the Fathers about BOD, and absolutely nothing in dogma.

    Stick with your 20th century catechisms, and specially the CCC and you've got all of the proof YOU need for your Implicit faith canard.

    Those that have eyes to see, let them see.

    Offline bowler

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    A Fourth Baptism
    « Reply #27 on: May 12, 2013, 06:58:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13

    Catechism of the Council of Trent (16th century): "....should any unforeseen accident deprive adults of baptism, their intention of receiving it, and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."  [section on baptism][/i]


    What hypocrisy!

    What name shall we call deniers of EENS like you, should we call them "salvation by desire alone supporters"? NO, for that would be an oxymoron, for 99% of them don't even believe that desire is necessary to save non-Catholics. They believe that people can be saved that died in other religions as long as they were "good and sincere". This is a problem! All these liberal traditionalists quote the Catechism of Trent on "desire", when they themselves don't even believe that desire is necessary. We can't use the broad term BOD, because it's been stolen by these people who use it in a bait and switch tactic.

    Scarcely any believers in baptism of desire ever answer the simple question whether they restrict "their belief" to the real theory of BOD, of the justified catechumen of the catechism of Trent, and of person explicitly desires to be a Catholic of St. Thomas, and St. Alphonsus Liguori.

    I want all those who are on the fence with regard to this debate on BOD, to always stay on the alert that advocates of baptism of desire NEVER use precise terms like these when discussing BOD. In any discussion on BOD, one must apply the ruler/template of the real BOD, that of the justified catechumen, and the implicit desire for baptism in those explicitly desiring to be a Catholic.

    Both of these theories require an outward manifestation of the  desire to be a Catholic. Apply this gage every time BOD advocates give an example of their "version" of  BOD.

    Here's an example submitted by BOD advocate:

    Quote
    "those invincibly ignorant of the divine Christian faith who are sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace"


    Let's apply the test,
    TEST #1 (the Catechism of Trent justified catechumen test) - Does it say anything about the person being a catechumen? NO!

    TEST#2 (the St. Thomas desire test) - Does it say anything about the person objectively desiring to be a Catholic, and believing at a minimum about the Holy Trinity, and the Incarnation? NO!.

    The answer is NO to both questions, the definition quoted above is opposed to all of the foundational sources used to defend baptism of desire.. Of course they can't come right out and say the heresy that ANYONE in ANY RELIGION can be saved by this description of theirs, so, they disguise their false "definition" in AMBIGUITY.


    What we have here is simple choice between two opposing teachings, it's the novel modern resuscitated teaching of the 1600's school of Salamanca, versus St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Alphonsus Ligouri, and ALL the saints that wrote on the subject. Yet the average BOD advocate does not see the contradiction. They don't see it because they do not really know what they believe, or why (Except those few who limit their belief to the catechism of Trent teaching).


    Offline saintbosco13

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    « Reply #28 on: May 12, 2013, 02:23:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: saintbosco13

    Council of Trent (16th century): Decree on Justification (Session 6, Chapter 4): And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.


    If that decree taught baptism of desire, then baptism of desire would be dogma.

    That decree is talking about  a living person. It says nothing about a person who dies that way. Moreover, it clearly says "as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

    Nothing clear in the Fathers about BOD, and absolutely nothing in dogma.

    Stick with your 20th century catechisms, and specially the CCC and you've got all of the proof YOU need for your Implicit faith canard.

    Those that have eyes to see, let them see.



    Bowler, why then does St. Alphonsus Ligouri, a Doctor of the Church, state:

    "Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de pres-bytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent"?

    Is he a heretic for saying this? He and other Church sources openly state the Council of Trent taught baptism of desire, so you hit it right on the head in your 1st sentence.


    Offline saintbosco13

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    « Reply #29 on: May 12, 2013, 02:35:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Here is another example of where a council could have easily defined baptism of desire, but again, the Holy Ghost did not:

    From "Is Feeneyism Catholic" by Fr. Laisney p. 77, he quotes St. Alphonsus Ligouri:




    It's been proven to you multiple times (in our discussions in the "Crisis in the church" area of this site) that the Church need not define baptism of desire, or any doctrine for that matter, since the ordinary magisterium is also infallible. You've been completely silent on that fact, yet you remain obstinate and continue running around this site spreading your erroneous viewpoints.