I know some of you might not agree with this but here it goes...

There are 4 Baptisms...

1) Baptism by Water
2) Baptism by Blood (Martyrdom)
3) Baptism of Desire (For Catechumens)
4) Implicit Desire (For those who never heard of Jesus Christ but practiced some sort of belief system and implied they would have been Baptized had they known i.e. Mayans)

All of which put a person in communion with the Catholic Church on some level. So you can't say that those who did not receive water Baptism are definitely going to hell since the minimum requirement is that you are apart of the Catholic Church.

Here are 2 Church Father quotes to support this...


"[Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins" (Oration on the Holy Lights 39:17 [A.D. 381]). -Gregory nαzιanz

“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared Him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes (Jn. 1:9). Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them . . . those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason, whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 46).

Doesn't anyone believe in Limbo anymore?  In it Dante (who is in line with Aquinas) places the souls of the poets Virgil, Homer, Horace, Ovid and Lucan, as well as the great thinkers and historical figures of Electra, Aeneas, Caesar, Saladin, Aristotle, Plato, Orpheus, Cicero, Avicenna and Averroes, among others.    

I know some of you might not agree with this but here it goes...

There are 4 Baptisms...

1) Baptism by Water
2) Baptism by Blood (Martyrdom)
3) Baptism of Desire (For Catechumens)
4) Implicit Desire (For those who never heard of Jesus Christ but practiced some sort of belief system and implied they would have been Baptized had they known i.e. Mayans)

All of which put a person in communion with the Catholic Church on some level. So you can't say that those who did not receive water Baptism are definitely going to hell since the minimum requirement is that you are apart of the Catholic Church.

Here are 2 Church Father quotes to support this...


"[Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins" (Oration on the Holy Lights 39:17 [A.D. 381]). -Gregory nαzιanz

“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared Him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes (Jn. 1:9). Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them . . . those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason, whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 46).

Your conclusion is based on two fallible quotes. That's not the Catholic method for determining truth.

Also, your four points are not precise enough, maybe your mistake, but more likely you are not aware of all of the distinctions:

1) The Sacrament of Baptism
2) Baptism by Blood (Martyrdom for the Catholic Faith)
3) Explicit Baptism of Desire of the catechumen.
4) Implicit Baptism of desire of those that want to be explicitely Catholic, and believe in the Trinity and the Incaranntion (Theory of St. Thomas)
5)For the invincible ignorant, Implicit faith in a God that rewards (For those who are invincible ignorant of the Catholic Church, even if they are surrounded by Catholics and evangelized for years)
6) Implicit Faith in a God that rewards (for those who practice another faith to the best of their ability, their other faith shows "Implict" faith in Christ.)

That's about it. Anyone can correct my descriptions since they are my own short and simple.

P.S- I don't believe any but #1. I am an Augustinian, I believe infallible dogmas as they are clearly written:

1) I am an Augustinian with regard to baptism of desire. Here is short is what I believe:

St. Augustine:   “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)


Therefore, I believe in EENS as it is written. What St. Augustine taught is exactly inline with the dogmatic decrees on EENS. I don't need to add any "qualifiers" to what the popes and councils have defined dogmatically to this present day.


What is EENS as it is written?

EENS (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) translates to  Outside of the Church there is no salvation. EENS as it is written means that we believe the dogmatic decrees on EENS exactly as the words say.



Excerpts of the Nine Dogmatic Decrees that all agree with St. Augustine


Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ[/b], unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
“… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”
 
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments.
On Baptism

Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.

Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema


Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”

Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who
have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy
orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
have not received this consecration.”


What those dogmatic Decrees Mean

From: Who Shall Ascend, by Fr. Walthen

Being ex cathedra definitions, they must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, to attempt to modify or qualify them in any way is to deny them.

3. The doctrine says clearly that only Catholics go to Heaven; all others are lost, that is, they do not go to Heaven, but to Hell. All who are inclined to dispute this dogma should have the good sense to realize that if this is not what the words of the definitions mean, the Church would never have promulgated such a position. To give any other meaning to these words is to portray the Church as foolish and ridiculous.

4. The pronouncements indicate that, by divine decree, those only will be saved who are members of the Church when they die. This membership must be formal, real, explicit, and, in those of the (mental) age of reason, deliberate. There is no such thing as "potential" membership in the Church, or "implicit" membership, or "quasi-membership," or "invisible membership," or anything of the kind. Neither can those who are catechumens, that is, those who are preparing to enter the Church, be considered members.

12. Let the reader accept the reasonable fact that the Pontiffs who pronounced these decrees were perfectly literate and fully cognizant of what they were saying. If there were any need to soften or qualify their meanings, they were quite capable of doing so.[/size] They were not regarded as heretics or fanatics at the time of their pronouncements, and have never been labelled such by the Church to this very day. It is an easy thing for the people of this "enlightened" age to fall into the modern delusion that the men of former times, especially those of the Middle Ages, were not as bright as we are, so that they sometimes said they knew not what.
13. The dates of these definitions are extremely important. They mark the time when the Church terminated speculation and discussion among theologians on the subject of the conditions of salvation. All writings on this subject, therefore, which predate these definitions have value only in so far as they corroborate these definitions.


15. Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject explains the doctrine by explaining it away. He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, Extra Ecclesiam, etc., and ends by denying it while continuing to insist vigorously that he is not doing so. He seems to think it a clever thing to state the formula, then to weasel out of it. What he ought to do is one of two things: either admit that he does not believe this dogma (and also in the same breath, that he does not believe in the Dogma of the Church's lnfallibility); or he should allow for the possibility that there is something about the Catholic Doctrine of Salvation of which he is unaware, or which he refuses to accept, or has been misled into denying.

I know some of you might not agree with this but here it goes...

There are 4 Baptisms...

1) Baptism by Water
2) Baptism by Blood (Martyrdom)
3) Baptism of Desire (For Catechumens)
4) Implicit Desire (For those who never heard of Jesus Christ but practiced some sort of belief system and implied they would have been Baptized had they known i.e. Mayans)

All of which put a person in communion with the Catholic Church on some level. So you can't say that those who did not receive water Baptism are definitely going to hell since the minimum requirement is that you are apart of the Catholic Church.

Here are 2 Church Father quotes to support this...


"[Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins" (Oration on the Holy Lights 39:17 [A.D. 381]). -Gregory nαzιanz

“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared Him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes (Jn. 1:9). Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them . . . those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason, whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (Justin Martyr, First Apology 46).

Yes this is correct. Note though that 3 and 4 are normally both categorized together under baptism of desire. So the Church typically refers to this teaching as the threefold baptism.

Your interpretation of these quotes is very narrow. I am not saying that you are wrong for viewing it this way. I am just saying I don't agree with your interpretation of these quotes. First of all, there are 4 Baptisms that place people into communion with the Catholic Church on some level. So they are not outside of the Catholic Church if they have received one of these Baptisms. Secondly, I agree with how all Jews, heretics, etc. that are outside of the Catholic Church do not see the kingdom of heaven. Its the Jews, heretics, etc. who are apart of the Catholic Church that have a chance. They would just have to go through purgatory first. The benefit of being a practicing Catholic is that we have the many graces of the Sacraments. Plus we do not go to purgatory for very long because we are constantly having our sins purged from us if we go to confession/mass every week.

Your interpretation of these quotes is very narrow. I am not saying that you are wrong for viewing it this way. I am just saying I don't agree with your interpretation of these quotes. First of all, there are 4 Baptisms that place people into communion with the Catholic Church on some level. So they are not outside of the Catholic Church if they have received one of these Baptisms. Secondly, I agree with how all Jews, heretics, etc. that are outside of the Catholic Church do not see the kingdom of heaven. Its the Jews, heretics, etc. who are apart of the Catholic Church that have a chance. They would just have to go through purgatory first. The benefit of being a practicing Catholic is that we have the many graces of the Sacraments. Plus we do not go to purgatory for very long because we are constantly having our sins purged from us if we go to confession/mass every week.

None of your theories have been declared dogmatically. They are all Fallible.
See the CI thread in the Crisis in the Church section entitled Why is BOD Left Out of All Dogmatic Decrees?

Baptism of desire of the Catechumen was not clearly taught by any Father of the Church. See the CI thread in the Crisis in the Church section entitled Fathers Rejected Even Explicit BOD of the Catechumen

Implicit Faith was not taught by any Father or Saint, and is opposed to the Athanasian Creed and St. Thomas and the Thomists. In other words it has absolutely no tradition whatsoever.

Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

Four!, why not five?.  Once sentimentalism takes hold the possibilities are endless........... :scratchchin:

Quote from: bowler

None of your theories have been declared dogmatically. They are all Fallible.

Bowler, you have been shown multiple times now that the Church does not need to declare anything dogmatically. For the first 1500 years of the Church, the Church hardly declared anything dogmatically. Again, you are like a deer in the headlights on this point.

And again, when you point at Church teaching and say it is "fallible", you are saying it is in error. But when we repeatedly ask you to show us who in the Church declared the error in the particular teaching (besides only you), you again are speechless. If a particular teaching of the Church were in error, then there will be plenty of docuмented objections from bishops, Saints, Popes etc. going back centuries. When we ask you for even one example of this, you again, are speechless in every case.

Your actions are just like that of Luther, and you have absolutely NO business discussing this topic.

Quote from: saintbosco13

I can't even count how many times you've dodged points presented to you in these discussions on the threefold baptism. You are constantly like a deer in the headlights. If you hold a true position, you should have no fear in answering simple questions like I've asked above, and several others previously asked. As you can imagine, doing this gives you no credibility.

Anyone with eyes to see can see that NOBODY in all of CI answers more questions about BOD than Bowler.

The plain truth is that you are not qualified to discuss the issue. This is why you don't see. You need to get whomever you go to for information, to come on here directly.

You need to get whomever you go to for information, to come on here directly