You don't take the text of the Council in a vacuum and then plaster whatever meaning you want to it.

This is Luther's approach to the Bible,

Rather you have to look at the mindset of the Church and Council Fathers to see what they intended in the text and it is CLEAR that they in no way meant absolute necessity of water baptism for salvation.

Quote from: stevusmagnus

Pius XII was a heretic?

Was Pius X as well?

Was Catechism of Trent heretical too?

Are there any non-Feeneyites who are NOT heretics?

The Catechism of Trent did not teach "implicit faith"!  (Show me where?!)  As for Pius X, maybe he should have corrected Pius IX.  Why, I do not know.  Hindsight is always 20/20.

Quote from: Belloc

Quote from: Jehanne

, only to the heretic Pius XII

Serious calumny without any proof......you are coming very close, if not already, at mortal sin......Jehanne, take a few days off this forum, compose an article with docuмented proof Pius XII was a heretic..........or zip it.......

I expect this silliness out of CM, sad to see it in you......

again, proof!!

No different than if he denied the Virgin Birth, as many churchmen do this very day.  I have explored this issue, thoroughly, and have challenged the individuals on this board, repeatedly, to provide me with one source prior to 1800 that said that membership in the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, could be "implicit" or that faith in Jesus Christ could be "implicit."  As I said before, I would be happy to reconsider my position.

What you are claiming about Pius XII could be claimed about the post-Vatican II Popes.

22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jєωs or Gentiles, whether bond or free." [17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered -- so the Lord commands -- as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Belloc

Quote from: Jehanne

, only to the heretic Pius XII

Serious calumny without any proof......you are coming very close, if not already, at mortal sin......Jehanne, take a few days off this forum, compose an article with docuмented proof Pius XII was a heretic..........or zip it.......

I expect this silliness out of CM, sad to see it in you......

again, proof!!

No different than if he denied the Virgin Birth, as many churchmen do this very day.  I have explored this issue, thoroughly, and have challenged the individuals on this board, repeatedly, to provide me with one source prior to 1800 that said that membership in the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, could be "implicit" or that faith in Jesus Christ could be "implicit."  As I said before, I would be happy to reconsider my position.

What you are claiming about Pius XII could be claimed about the post-Vatican II Popes.

so...somewhere along the way, Pius XII used the words "implicit faith" and poof......he is an anti-pope, heretic, scuмbag......

have you ever thought,said,beleived a unCatholic thought, stone thrower?

also, how do we know a translator did not make an error or some other human faulty action????? Too bad he is dead, in between kicking his dead body around, you could ask him....

but alas, guess we can never know for sure and heck, it is easier not to give him benefit of the doubt......which as a lceric, we should do in cases like this and for those of use that recognize him as Pope, our duty to the Pope...(benefit does not imply sheeple obediance, but benefit...)

in another thread, you stated you wre not yet a SV, me thinks you have made the choice now,yes.......?

Quote from: SJB

Membership in the Church, as defined by Pius XII, is NOT implicit.

Quote

22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jєωs or Gentiles, whether bond or free." [17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered -- so the Lord commands -- as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

Outside of which no one at all will be saved.  But, he doesn't say that, does he?  I am still waiting for my pre-1800 source.

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: SJB

Membership in the Church, as defined by Pius XII, is NOT implicit.

Quote

22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jєωs or Gentiles, whether bond or free." [17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered -- so the Lord commands -- as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

Outside of which no one at all will be saved.  But, he doesn't say that, does he?  I am still waiting for my pre-1800 source.

What error was Pius XII addressing here? Do you even know, Mr. Historian?

It was written during WWII as the h0Ɩ0cαųst was swinging into high gear.  Perhaps Pius XII wanted to distance himself from Naxism yet appear orthodox in his beliefs.