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Author Topic: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"  (Read 7435 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2023, 11:19:15 AM »
I've never had an issue with someone who held the limited view of BoD held by St. Robert or St. Thomas beyond a relatively friendly disagreement.


I've expressed here a "limited view of BoD" such as that of St. Robert and St. Thomas, but we've had some rather violent disagreements on the issue. I guess your "relatively friendly" would allow for what I describe as "violent disagreement," since, well, a subjective or "relative" assessment of the level or quality of the disagreement obtains there.
 :laugh1:

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2023, 11:33:30 AM »

I've expressed here a "limited view of BoD" such as that of St. Robert and St. Thomas, but we've had some rather violent disagreements on the issue. I guess your "relatively friendly" would allow for what I describe as "violent disagreement," since, well, a subjective or "relative" assessment of the level or quality of the disagreement obtains there.
:laugh1:

Nah, the issues I've had with you have been more along the lines of the R&R question ... into which you sometimes injected the BoD question.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2023, 12:22:46 PM »

Quote
I've never had an issue with someone who held the limited view of BoD held by St. Robert or St. Thomas beyond a relatively friendly disagreement.

My issue is with those who extend "BoD" so much that it renders EENS utterly meaningless, and destroys Catholic ecclesiology.  I don't believe in BoD for the reasons I've articulated, that there's no Patristic support for its having been revealed, not argument I've ever seen that it's a necessary implication of other revealed truth ... nothing to suggest that it's anything other than pure speculation, which the Church has admittedly permitted.  I have problems with entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, however, without the Baptismal seal.  I'd be less opposed to a theory where individuals who receive BoD also received the Sacramental seal.  I'm open to a theory that those who die with BoD will be baptized at the Resurrection (similar to how the OT just likely were), or theories that angels administer the Sacrament to those dying with BoD.  But this notion of being able to enter the Beatific Vision without the seal seems squarely contrary to the Church Fathers and to everything that's known about this character of the Sacrament.  To me it's not so much about who is saved vs. who isn't ... but about HOW we can and cannot be saved.
Agree 100%.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Fr Wathen - on EENS, Invincible Ignorance and the "Unsaints"
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2023, 05:26:56 PM »
 I hold that some who lived lives of natural virtue suffer very little, and I believe that there are those who can approximate or even reach the same state as infants in Limbo.  There are in fact probably some Native Americans existing in some "Happy Hunting Ground".  So the view of Heaven and Hell being just binary states, where you're either happy beyond words or in an extreme cauldron of torment has actually done a lot to inspire the rejection of EENS dogma.
But if ignorance is punishment for sin wouldn't these invincible ignorant people be condemned for their other sins?