Author Topic: "Last millisecond before death" conversion (Read 4013 times)

Malleus · « **on:** January 23, 2015, 01:57:31 AM »

I have seen this been thrown around and abused in these times all over the place, even here in this forum. "We don't know if at the last second/millisecond of their lives they converted or made an act of contrition".

Really? A second? A millisecond? Since when is that all the time you need to make an act of perfect contrition? An abjuration/rejection of your errors? For starters you can't even begin to get ready to make an act of perfect contrition in that amount of time, let alone say the act itself.

And how does this work? X person is lying on their death bed, obstinately rejecting the Church and conversion right up to the moment of death and then suddenly, when they feel they are about to die or are actually dying, out of fear they say "I'm sorry!" and then poof they die. Will they escape Hell just because of that? Seems more like a dishonest conversion/braving putting off your conversion more than anything, waiting until the very last moment.

What I have read from the Saints don't support this "last second" conversion either; in fact they teach the total opposite.

Quote

St. Louis Montfort, True Devotion to Mary, #97:

They say that God is good and merciful; that He has not made us to condemn us everlastingly; that no man is without sin; that they shall not die without confession; that one good act of contrition at the hour of death is enough.

The sermon of St. Leonard of Port Maurice, the Little Number of those who are saved, even says that most Catholics who actually die with the last sacraments are damned. Yet here we are with people throwing around this "last second" stuff without any sacrament at all to boot.

I don't reject or question deathbed conversions. I would prefer if instead they would say last minutes or something, because then something can actually be done, since there is actually some time to do something.

But this "last second/millisecond" stuff just sounds crazy.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2015, 08:06:54 AM »

Anything is POSSIBLE with God; it only takes a second.

But ... with that said, it's extremely unlikely. I think it was St. Alphonsus who said that deathbed conversions are one in a million.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2015, 08:58:09 AM »

Quote from: Nado

The mention of St. Alphonus by Ladislaus is actually speaking of deathbed conversions that we see. He is not speaking of those which we do not.

Uhm, no. St. Alphonsus was speaking about deathbed conversions in general, not just the visible ones. You really do like to just make things up, don't you?

St. Alphonsus' motto was "You die as you live."

Jehanne · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2015, 09:09:52 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Anything is POSSIBLE with God; it only takes a second.

But ... with that said, it's extremely unlikely. I think it was St. Alphonsus who said that deathbed conversions are one in a million.

I agree, but no one really knows for sure. My dad died two years ago this day, having ended his life as an adulterous pagan refusing, to his last moments, my invitation to receive the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. While I don't "hope" that he is in eternal Hell (which, of course, would be a mortal sin against my soul), I think that it is at least certain that he is, in fact, consigned to the everlasting flames. While I still love him, I love the eternal, omnipotent One and Triune God, an uniquely Perfect and Infinite Being, more, and it is the latter's perfect, righteous and holy judgments which I accept.

In the End, what a terrible thing to lose one's eternal, immortal soul!

Stubborn · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2015, 11:23:33 AM »

St. Augustine, in his final book, the book of his retractions, he says: "How many rascals are saved by being baptized on their deathbeds? And how many sincere catechumens die unbaptized, and are thus lost forever! ...When we shall have come into the sight of God, we shall behold the equity of His justice. At that time, no one will say: Why did He help this one and not that one? Why was this man led by God‘s direction to be baptized, while that man, though he lived properly as a catechumen, was killed in a sudden disaster and not baptized? Look for rewards, and you will find nothing but punishments! …For of what use would repentance be, even before Baptism, if Baptism did not follow? ...No matter what progress a catechumen may make, he still carries the burden of iniquity, and it is not taken away until he has been baptized."

The jist of it is that he states as if it were fact that there certainly are death bed conversions, yet he is very specific in that he says that those who get baptized, then die are saved.

If salvation in the last nano-second of the life of an infidel was a possibility, then common sense dictates that St. Augustine certainly didn't think so because if sincere catechumens are lost forever, then certainly a person who doesn't even know how to make an act of perfect contrition stands no chance whatsoever.

Cantarella · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2015, 11:37:34 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

St. Augustine, in his final book, the book of his retractions, he says: "How many rascals are saved by being baptized on their deathbeds? And how many sincere catechumens die unbaptized, and are thus lost forever! ...When we shall have come into the sight of God, we shall behold the equity of His justice. At that time, no one will say: Why did He help this one and not that one? Why was this man led by God‘s direction to be baptized, while that man, though he lived properly as a catechumen, was killed in a sudden disaster and not baptized? Look for rewards, and you will find nothing but punishments! …For of what use would repentance be, even before Baptism, if Baptism did not follow? ...No matter what progress a catechumen may make, he still carries the burden of iniquity, and it is not taken away until he has been baptized."

The jist of it is that he states as if it were fact that there certainly are death bed conversions, yet he is very specific in that he says that those who get baptized, then die are saved.

If salvation in the last nano-second of the life of an infidel was a possibility, then common sense dictates that St. Augustine certainly didn't think so because if sincere catechumens are lost forever, then certainly a person who doesn't even know how to make an act of perfect contrition stands no chance whatsoever.

Agree.

Quote from: Malleus

I don't reject or question deathbed conversions.

After talking with many priests, contrary to the general belief, these "deathbed" conversions are actually extremely, extremely rare. Most sinners die unrepented, most humans are damned.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2015, 11:51:24 AM »

Quote from: Jehanne

I agree, but no one really knows for sure. My dad died two years ago this day, having ended his life as an adulterous pagan refusing, to his last moments, my invitation to receive the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.

But the prayers of others are most likely the decider of those one in a million cases. For every person who has someone praying for their conversion, a million die who have no one praying for them. St. Alphonsus always said that if you pray during your life you will be saved; if you do not pray during your life, you will be lost.

Indeed there is nothing more horrible than the loss of an immortal soul.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2015, 11:53:02 AM »

Quote from: Nado

If that was his motto, the Saint did not mean it literally, but as a practical moral adage for a subject himself, not for us to use observing others.

Remember what you told me months ago, that you can deny a claim until it is supported? I deny your claim that is what St. Alphonsus meant. Reasoning is not necessarily invention.

So make up out of thin air your allegation that St. Alphonsus didn't really mean what he wrote and put the burden of proof on others to prove that he DID mean it. You think what you want; you always will anyway. Sometimes I think that you cannot possibly be a real person. You must also not be well read in the works of St. Alphonsus, since this is a constant theme of his.

Stubborn · « **Reply #8 on:** January 23, 2015, 12:17:06 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Nado
If that was his motto, the Saint did not mean it literally, but as a practical moral adage for a subject himself, not for us to use observing others.

Remember what you told me months ago, that you can deny a claim until it is supported? I deny your claim that is what St. Alphonsus meant. Reasoning is not necessarily invention.

So make up out of thin air your allegation that St. Alphonsus didn't really mean what he wrote and put the burden of proof on others to prove that he DID mean it. You think what you want; you always will anyway. Sometimes I think that you cannot possibly be a real person. You must also not be well read in the works of St. Alphonsus, since this is a constant theme of his.

The Nado posts just to disagree with everyone and twist what the Church has taught into some bazaar religion. I'm convinced that is what the Nado's purpose for participating here is.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2015, 01:03:06 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

The Nado posts just to disagree with everyone ...

Agreed.

Matto · « **Reply #10 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:45:17 PM »

I have read from traditional Catholic sources in the past that deathbed conversions are rare and that most sinners who are dying are not saved. Then there are those who believe in the Divine Mercy devotion, which I do not, who think it is very easy to be saved because God is so merciful.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2015, 06:02:04 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Matto
I have read from traditional Catholic sources in the past that deathbed conversions are rare and that most sinners who are dying are not saved. Then there are those who believe in the Divine Mercy devotion, which I do not, who think it is very easy to be saved because God is so merciful.

When you say "deathbed conversions" are you speaking of people who are non-Catholic, or merely Catholics in mortal sin? It's important.

I refer to both.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #12 on:** January 24, 2015, 06:48:54 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Nado
Quote from: Matto
I have read from traditional Catholic sources in the past that deathbed conversions are rare and that most sinners who are dying are not saved. Then there are those who believe in the Divine Mercy devotion, which I do not, who think it is very easy to be saved because God is so merciful.

When you say "deathbed conversions" are you speaking of people who are non-Catholic, or merely Catholics in mortal sin? It's important.

I refer to both.

Both are hardly the same, one still has the virtue of divine Faith, and the other doesn't. Quite a substantial difference.

Obviously. I am saying that in BOTH cases people tend to live as they die. If they lived in obstinate sin their entire lives, it's also unlikely that they will suddenly have perfect contrition at the end. I'm not talking about someone who generally lived well but just happened to fall into grave sin sometime before death. I'm talking about the obstinate lifelong sinner.

Matto · « **Reply #13 on:** January 24, 2015, 06:51:13 PM »

Quote from: Nado

When you say "deathbed conversions" are you speaking of people who are non-Catholic, or merely Catholics in mortal sin? It's important.

Both.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #14 on:** January 25, 2015, 12:29:36 PM »

Quote from: Nado

I am glad you say, "I am saying", because it is not St. Alphonsus saying it, but your own impression of what he says. I hardly think statistics for death-bed "conversions" would be the same comparing one who does NOT have the divine virtue of Faith (non-Catholic) with one who DOES (lax Catholic).

I said "I am saying" because your initial question was directed at Matto. St. Alphonsus said this also. I was not talking about lax Catholics. I was talking about those who had lived in sin their entire lives. St. Alphonsus believed that the chances of conversion where slim to none for these as well.