Okay, let me ask you this -- what happens to an infant born of Muslim parents who is validly baptized but who dies at age one?  Age five?  Age six?  How about if the child is profoundly retarded and dies at age 40?

Okay, let me ask you this -- what happens to an infant born of Muslim parents who is validly baptized but who dies at age one?  Age five?  Age six?  How about if the child is profoundly retarded and dies at age 40?

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Can. 13 on the Sacrament of Baptism:

“If anyone shall say that infants, because they have not actual faith, after having received baptism are not to be numbered among the faithful… let him be anathema.”[cxv]

If they reach an age of reason and reject the faith, they sever their union with the Body of Christ.   Does that not make sense?

1.- Heitanen, I'm not making up lies. People of other religions can be saved if they convert, and I personally believe that God has mercy on some Protestants. Obviously the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church is true, but it's not impossible for God to occasionally allow a Protestant who had every intention of pleasing God into Heaven.

2.- I already told you why I didn't tell Jehanne not to play Doom. If I had known enough about it I would have said something. Plus, I was busy trying to prove that Dante's Inferno was a bad game.

3.- You don't read posts right. I never said that people should buy food on Sunday if they didn't have to. I said that if we used your logic, we might as well not give money to a grocery store that was open on Sunday.

4.- Benedict being an anti-pope is a matter of opinion, not a necessity. There are numerous other people on this forum who don't think he's an anti-pope, if you don't like it, don't post here. I do not reject Catholic dogma on salvation, baptism, or ANYTHING else. You're an extremist, Hietanen. And extremism is a form of heresy, therefore you are a heretic. You're posts are extremely smug and arrogant. You come off as a religious know-it-all, and to be honest I'm getting tired of it, and I think other people here are as well.

1.- Heitanen, I'm not making up lies. People of other religions can be saved if they convert, and I personally believe that God has mercy on some Protestants. Obviously the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church is true, but it's not impossible for God to occasionally allow a Protestant who had every intention of pleasing God into Heaven.

Of course, such persons would not be Protestants, which is what you meant to say.  We all agree that a validly baptized "Protestant," especially those who are baptized in infancy are fully Catholic, and if they die without mortal sin, then they will go to Heaven, as Catholics.

Of course, I knew what you meant.  Heitanen, on the other hand, is going to take you literally and call you a heretic for what you literally said.

BTW.... it was more like 10 hours... now its been a couple days... am I allowed to repost a question since no one responded to it the first time?

Do whatever you want...

FWIW, I DID respond to you first question.  You just didn't like the response :)

Believe it or not, some of us have lives outside the home.

It should be an easy question to answer for those who hold that St. Thomas knew the Dogma.  

Actually, it requires at least a little time to look up quotes, etc.  IMO, your attitude does not inspire one to take the necessary time -- even if it is only five minutes.

Eamon, can you give the first ex cathedra declaration before St. Thomas died in 1274 that specifically said that sacramental water Baptism was necessary for salvation?

You DO realize that the Church does not teach SOLELY via ex cathedra statements, right?  

The verse from Holy Writ is crystal clear, and it comes from Incarnate Wisdom -- the Supreme teaching authority.

FWIW, here is a little something for you (from Hietanen's post):

Pope St. Leo the Great, dogmatic letter to Flavian, Council of Chalcedon, 451: "Let him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that sanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ’s blood (1 Pet. 1:2); and let him not skip over the same apostle’s words, knowing that you have been redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your fathers, not with corruptible gold and silver but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, as of a lamb without stain or spot (1 Pet. 1:18). Nor should he withstand the testimony of blessed John the apostle: and the blood of Jesus, the Son of God, purifies us from every sin (1 Jn. 1:7); and again, This is the victory which conquers the world, our faith. Who is there who conquers the world save one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? It is He, Jesus Christ, who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood. And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies. For there are three who give testimony – Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. (1 Jn. 5:4-8) IN OTHER WORDS, THE SPIRIT OF SANCTIFICATION AND THE BLOOD OF REDEMPTION AND THE WATER OF BAPTISM. THESE THREE ARE ONE AND REMAIN INDIVISIBLE. NONE OF THEM IS SEPARABLE FROM ITS LINK WITH THE OTHERS."

Catholics are free to differ as to what happens to unbaptized infants. Limbo is not a dogma. A Catholic is free to believe God saves them as they have no personal guilt and had no chance to remit original sin.

I believe Aquinas and Augustine differed on this issue.

Okay, let me ask you this -- what happens to an infant born of Muslim parents who is validly baptized but who dies at age one?  Age five?  Age six?  How about if the child is profoundly retarded and dies at age 40?

First, virtually no people but Christians baptize their children with the correct wording. So when you say baptized Muslims or Jew infants, you are speaking of scenarios which virtually never happen.

So long as a validly baptized infant is in state of infancy, is she/he a Catholic. The moment that Child reaches age of reason, and rejects the Faith, or dies in mortal sin, he/she is lost.

Profoundly retarded people remain in infancy during their whole life, and if such are baptized, they are Catholics and saved.

Yes, absolutely; for Hietanen, I am not sure.  But, what does it mean to "sever their union with the Body of Christ"?  Is simply being ignorant of the Gospel constitute severing one's union with the Body of Christ?

Not sure about what? I think you know my position. Please explain.

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

1.- Heitanen, I'm not making up lies. People of other religions can be saved if they convert, and I personally believe that God has mercy on some Protestants. Obviously the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church is true, but it's not impossible for God to occasionally allow a Protestant who had every intention of pleasing God into Heaven.

Of course, such persons would not be Protestants, which is what you meant to say.  We all agree that a validly baptized "Protestant," especially those who are baptized in infancy are fully Catholic, and if they die without mortal sin, then they will go to Heaven, as Catholics.

Of course, I knew what you meant.  Heitanen, on the other hand, is going to take you literally and call you a heretic for what you literally said.

No, I have no problem with him saying that a protestant can be saved, I understand that, since they believe in the trinity and incarnation. What I have problem with, was when people apply the same logic to Muslims, Jews, Hinduists, etc. That's a problem, which is heresy. Therefore, cannot Levfebre have escaped heresy, since he not only mentioned Protestants, but Muslims, Jews, Hundistis, animalists, etc, and that they could be saved practicing their religion.

The problem is dishonesty. SpiritusSanctus has to make it look like as if this is only about protestants, or as if Levfebre was only speaking about protestants or about people who actually believed in Jesus Christ and the Trinity and who was baptized. But that is far from true, as we've know.