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Author Topic: Communicatio In Sacris with today's Trad Clergy  (Read 661 times)

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Offline LeDeg

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Communicatio In Sacris with today's Trad Clergy
« on: August 17, 2019, 01:00:21 PM »
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  • I have some honest questions and hope this can remain civil.


    As demonstrated by trad123 in his thread on the quotes from the traditional clergy, they ALL state that non Catholics can be saved without embracing Christ and His Church's teachings whole and inviolate.


    Wherever you come down on "Fenneyism" (and yes Roscoe, we all know there is no such thing 8))is there ANY traditional cleric that upholds the true teaching on this? Would this not be considered Communicatio In Sacris if one were to go to them for the Sacraments? It seems all of the traditional clergy embrace teachings that are very much at odds with EENS, whatever their persuasion is in regards to the Vatican II crisis.



    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Communicatio In Sacris with today's Trad Clergy
    « Reply #1 on: August 17, 2019, 01:54:36 PM »
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  • That feels dangerously close to home alonerism. We cannot avoid the Sacraments period.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Communicatio In Sacris with today's Trad Clergy
    « Reply #2 on: August 18, 2019, 01:31:50 PM »
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  • St Hermenegildi Martyris rejected to receive the Communion from a heretic bishop, since heretics' consecrations are sacrilegious, they steal God.

    http://divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/horas/officium.pl


    S. Hermenegildi Martyris ~ Semiduplex
    Scriptura: Feria Sexta infra Hebdomadam I post Octavam Paschæ
    Ad Matutinum
    Trident 1910
    4-13-2018


    Reading 4
    From the Book of Dialogues written by Pope St. Gregory
    Lib. 3. Cap. 31.
    Hermenegild, the son of Leovigild, King of the Visigoths, was turned from the Arian heresy to the Catholic Faith by the preaching of that most worshipful man Leander, Bishop of Seville, the same who was for a long season mine own familiar friend. Then his father, being himself an Arian, strove to bring him back to that heresy, first by offering him gifts, and then seeking to awe him by threatening. And when he answered alway that, having once had knowledge of the true faith, he never could forsake it, his father was wroth, and took away his kingdom from him, and plundered him of all his goods. And when not even so could he sap the manliness of his soul, he cast him into a most strait prison, having his neck and his hands in fetters of iron. And so that young King Hermenegild began to hold in little esteem an earthly kingdom, and to long exceedingly for an heavenly. Yea, he clothed himself in sackcloths in the prison, and as he lay bound therein, he poured forth supplications to Almighty God to give him strength. There he lay bound, having suffered the loss of all things, but his suffering made him but to esteem more worthless the glory of this world, which passeth away so easily.


    Reading 5
    But when the day of the glad Passover came, at dead of night, the unbelieving father sent to his son the Arian Bishop, to offer him, as the price of his favour, to receive at the hands of the said Bishop the Communion which was the result of a sacrilegious consecration. But when the Arian Bishop came into the prison, the servant of God, remembering that he was not his own but God's man, rebuked the unbeliever as he deserved, and drave him from his presence with just reproaches for though he was weak and bound as touching this outer body, yet was he strong in the mighty castle of his soul. The Bishop, therefore, went away again to that Arian father. And when he came to Leovigild, he waxed exceeding wroth, and sent his servants to kill God's faithful witness where he lay. Which thing was done for as soon as they came to him into the prison, they clave his head with an axe, and freed him from the dying life of this house of our tabernacle. And so they did to him all that which they that kill the body are able to do, and it was a thing which now of a long season he feared not, seeing that when they have done that, they have no more that they can do, but fearing rather Him Who, when He hath killed, hath power to cast both body and soul into hell. But God, to make manifest the glory of His servant, was pleased to work signs from heaven, for of a sudden the solemn swell of singing of Psalms was heard at that dead hour of night from round about the place where lay the body of the kingly martyr, kingly now in an higher and truer sense than the sense of earthly kingship, since he had witnessed a good confession for the truth, sealing it with his blood.


    Reading 6
    Come say, too, that lights were seen there that night. Wherefore it came to pass that the body of the martyr became the rightful object of reverence to all God's faithful people. The unbelieving father, murderer of his own child, was seized with remorse, and repented him or what he had done, but he sorrowed not unto salvation. For though he knew that the Catholic faith was true, he stood in fear of his people, and deserved not to attain unto it. He fell sick, and, when he was at the point of death, he made it his duty to recommend King Reccared his surviving son to the care of the Bishop Leander, whom aforetime he had grievously persecuted, that though Reccared was now left in heresy, the Bishop might work in him by his exhortations the same change that he had worked in his brother, which when Leovigild had said, he died. After his death, King Reccared took for his example not his unbelieving father but his martyred brother. He forsook the Arian heresy, and brought the whole nation of the Visigoths to believe in the true faith, so that he allowed no man in his kingdom to be an officer, who dared any longer range himself through heresy as an enemy of the Kingdom of God. Neither need we marvel that Reccared was a preacher of the faith, since he had had to his brother a martyr, for whose sake Almighty God hath helped him to bring back so many to the bosom of their Father Who is in heaven.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline MarylandTrad

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    Re: Communicatio In Sacris with today's Trad Clergy
    « Reply #3 on: August 18, 2019, 03:43:38 PM »
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  • I have some honest questions and hope this can remain civil.


    As demonstrated by trad123 in his thread on the quotes from the traditional clergy, they ALL state that non Catholics can be saved without embracing Christ and His Church's teachings whole and inviolate.


    Wherever you come down on "Fenneyism" (and yes Roscoe, we all know there is no such thing 8))is there ANY traditional cleric that upholds the true teaching on this? Would this not be considered Communicatio In Sacris if one were to go to them for the Sacraments? It seems all of the traditional clergy embrace teachings that are very much at odds with EENS, whatever their persuasion is in regards to the Vatican II crisis.

    There are many traditionalist priests who uphold EENS as defined. There are independent priests, Institute of Christ the King priests, FSSP priests, SSPX priests, etc. who adhere to the dogma's true sense. When it comes to the major traditionalist priestly societies, those who uphold the literal meaning are going to be in a minority, but they do exist.  

    With that said, if I didn't live in driving distance to a chapel with one of these priests, I would still go the traditional Mass somewhere. 



    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Communicatio In Sacris with today's Trad Clergy
    « Reply #4 on: August 18, 2019, 06:09:02 PM »
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  • That feels dangerously close to home alonerism. We cannot avoid the Sacraments period.


    My friend, as a movement, traditional Catholics are very close to being "home-aloners", en masse.

    Now Francis's SSPX will tell us:



    "We have the traditional Sacraments here!"  
    "Don't stay at home in sin... bring us your minds & hearts & money".

    But WE WILL LOSE THE MASS, as Sr. Lucy warned us in 1957, relating Our Lady's statement that we will only have two means of consolation and no others.  That being the Holy Rosary and devotion to her Immaculate Heart.

    Since she did not say Our Lord's Sacred Heart, which represents the Holy Eucharist, it means, indirectly, we will lose the Mass.

    That point may be the most important thing to for trads to prep their families for.


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi