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Author Topic: "Believers" in Baptism of Desire and Being "gαy"  (Read 3984 times)

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Re: "Believers" in Baptism of Desire and Being "gαy"
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2019, 11:15:56 PM »
As Last Tradhican points out, the Modernists won the debate when they inserted error/confusion into the catechism.  If even Trent had utterly condemned BOD, the fact that it's mentioned in the catechism is enough for most people, who can't follow the theology enough to see the problems in all of this.
I never said "the Modernists won the debate when they inserted error/confusion into the catechism (of Trent)", you have me mixed up with someone else. 

I did say that the catechism of Trent nowhere mentions baptism of desire and on the contrary it reaffirms the Council of Trent's teaching on the absolute necessity of the sacrament of baptism for salvation:

https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/fr-jenkins-refutes-feeneyism/msg662855/#msg662855


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I watched the first minutes where he says that the Catechism of Trent (COT) teaches baptism of desire, that's all I needed to here,  for nowhere does the Catechism of Trent mention the phrase baptism of desire, moreover, the quote that he mentions does not say that a person can be saved without baptism. The Catechism of Trent does clearly teach that one must be baptized to be saved and that there is no sanctifying grace to be had any other way than through the sacraments, and many other teachings that contradict the teachings of those that teach that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhist, Jews.... can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards, what 99% of promoters of BOD really believe.



The quote from the COT that Fr. Jenkins says teaches baptism of desire
Catechism of the Council of Trent, Ordinarily They Are Not Baptized At Once, p. 179: “On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time.  The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.”


Many other COT quotes that contradict the teachings of those that teach that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhist, Jews.... can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards, what 99% of promoters of BOD really believe.

 
Catechism of the Council of Trent, Tan Books, p. 243: “For the Eucharist is the end of all the Sacraments, and the symbol of unity and brotherhood in the Church, outside of which none can attain grace.”

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Tan Books, p. 320 The Sacrament of Holy Orders - Requirements in Candidates for Orders - Right Intention:  Thus they offer Sacrifice for themselves and for all the people; they explain God's law and exhort and form the faithful to observe it promptly and cheerfully; they administer the Sacraments of Christ our Lord by means of which all grace is conferred and increased; and, in a word, they are separated from the rest of the people to fill by far the greatest and noblest of all ministries.

                          
Catechism of the Council of Trent, Comparisons among the Sacraments, p. 154: “Though all the Sacraments possess a divine and admirable efficacy, it is well worthy of special remark that all are not of equal necessity or of equal dignity, nor is the signification of all the same.     “Among them three are said to be necessary beyond the rest, although in all three this necessity is not of the same kind. The universal and absolute necessity of Baptism our Savior has declared in these words: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5).”

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism – Necessity of Baptism, pp. 176-177: “If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that THE LAW OF BAPTISM, AS ESTABLISHED BY OUR LORD, EXTENDS TO ALL, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction.  Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5).”

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Definition of Baptism, p. 163: “Unless, says our Lord, a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5); and, speaking of the Church, the Apostle says, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life (Eph. 5:26).  Thus it follows that Baptism may be rightly and accurately defined: The Sacrament of regeneration by water in the word.”

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, In Case of Necessity Adults May Be Baptized At Once, p. 180: “Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death, Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptized is well instructed in the mysteries of faith.”

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.”

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Matter of Baptism - Fitness, p. 165: “Upon this subject pastors can teach in the first place that water, which is always at hand and within the reach of all, was the fittest matter of a Sacrament which is necessary to all for salvation.”

 

Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism – Second Effect: Sacramental Character, p. 159: “In the character impressed by Baptism, both effects are exemplified.  By it we are qualified to receive the other Sacraments, and the Christian is distinguished from those who do not profess the faith.”





Re: "Believers" in Baptism of Desire and Being "gαy"
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2019, 11:30:29 PM »
Hmmmmmm so would you see "implicit #1 and #2" as fallling under the same basic principle, while "implicit #3 and implicit #4" fall under the same basic principle?  That seems like what you're getting at here.

Yet, I'm inclined to accept "Implicit #3" as theoretically possible, but #4 seems not to be (though I realize some BOD advocates would take it that far.)
The writer is  "inclined" to accept #3, but says #4 "seems" not to be? No, the writer is poisoned, and one drop of strychnine kills the same as a whole bottle.

Ladislaus is just pointing out what St. Thomas and St. A. Ligouri taught, points #1 and #2 and that the other two points are rejected by them, and not taught by any council, saints, or anyone but nobodies. Moreover, #3 and #4 contradict too many dogmas to list them all here. In order to believe what the writer already believes,  one has to ignore all the dogmas, which is drinking Strychnine by the gulps.

Imagine a God that gives an infidel actual grace to will to do whatever God asks, and yet does not give him the actual grace to leave his false religion and become a Catholic? That is what #3 is teaching and forget about #4. That is what the writer believes. The writer gives too much credit to man's involvement in his own salvation. Were it not for God's Grace, not a person would die a baptized Catholic in a state of sanctifying grace. And here we have the writer believing in a God  that gives someone actual grace to desire whatever God asks but God does not give him the grace to become a Catholic or put him in a place and a century when  there are Catholics around to baptize him. His god is so inept and cruel that the writer has to invent his own ways of saving men, he has to rationalize it all. 


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: "Believers" in Baptism of Desire and Being "gαy"
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2019, 07:12:31 AM »
People universally read more into the Roman Catechism passage than what it's actually saying.

It's saying that infants should be baptized without undue delay, since there's a danger that they might die without the Sacrament and be lost.

On the contrary, for adults, their proper dispositions to receive the Sacrament will avail them to grace.  All this is saying is that God will grant their desires (seek and you shall find) ... and prevent them from being cut off by some misfortune from receiving the grace they desired, i.e. justification through Baptism.  This does NOT state that if they died at that moment they would be saved.

Now the confusion comes from that phrase "should any unforeseen misfortune ..." actually has the sense in Latin of "lest any unforseen accident".

St. Rufinus, a Church Father, used this exact language (at least in translation, since I don't have the Latin), when he said that a man's confession of the faith will avail him to justification ... and then added the phrase, so that he would be ensured of receiving Baptism.  In other words, the meaning there ... and this passage in Trent clearly echos St. Rufinus ... was that once you have the proper dispositions for Baptism, God will MAKE SURE YOU GET IT.

It's similar to the speculations of St. Ambrose that are universally misinterpreted as an endorsement of BoD.  St. Ambrose said that Valentinian received the grace that he sought.  Ask and you shall receive.  Whatever it is that he desired and sought, he received.  Could he have been given an emergency Baptism?  Either that, or he received what he asked for, the implication being that if he did not receive Baptism, it was because he did not properly will to receive it.  That's all St. Ambrose was saying there, and all that the Roman Catechism is saying here, and what St. Rufinus explicitly taught.  This passage falls short of an endorsement of BoD, although it does leave the question open.  St. Ambrose, in other writings, explicitly rejects the possibility that a catechumen who dies before Baptism can be saved.  So it would not make sense to read the Valentinian passage as a sudden about-face endorsement of BoD.

Online Pax Vobis

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Re: "Believers" in Baptism of Desire and Being "gαy"
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2019, 08:37:55 AM »

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I never said "the Modernists won the debate when they inserted error/confusion into the catechism (of Trent)", you have me mixed up with someone else. 

I was speaking of your thread on the catechism of Pius X, which shows a faulty translation.  In my opinion, this was done by the Modernists and they "won" the debate (in the minds of most liberal catholics) who can point to a catechism and say "See, it mentions BOD.  Are you more catholic than St Pius X?"  It's really hard to debate that point with people who want BOD to be true or those who don't have the aptitude to study all the background facts.  Those that are open to the truth will see this "evidence" as shady.  Most will use it as an excuse to continue on in their errors.