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Author Topic: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized  (Read 6339 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2019, 12:36:17 AM »
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  • I'm not sure what you mean  BoD wouldn't come into play with someone who's already baptized.
    I meant could a baptized ex-Protestant who is still a catechumen in the Catholic Church be saved if he died during his time as a catechumen? 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized
    « Reply #16 on: May 05, 2019, 04:36:21 AM »
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  • I meant could a baptized ex-Protestant who is still a catechumen in the Catholic Church be saved if he died during his time as a catechumen?
    Yes. Confirmation is not required for salvation. We have death-bed baptisms but I've never heard of a death-bed confirmation. 


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized
    « Reply #17 on: May 06, 2019, 08:24:48 AM »
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  • I meant could a baptized ex-Protestant who is still a catechumen in the Catholic Church be saved if he died during his time as a catechumen?
    Assuming the prot baptism was valid, who knows for sure? - No one, only God. But for us, we simply pray for the person however unlikely it might seem that he made it.

    Unlikely that is, unless he died after making a good confession, in which case he would be counted among the faithful departed.

    Not sure how likely it is these days that a catechumen would go to confession as a catechumen as they are not really supposed to be a catechumen at that point, but I have seen it happen before where the person who was baptized a prot, then learned the essentials of the faith, passed the quiz given by the priest, went to confession and received Communion after confession.    

    If the proper matter and form were used, then it was a valid baptism. Although he received the sacrament illicitly, that baptism was valid and removed the Original Sin, but without confession, we - and not even he could be sure his sins were forgiven, for us, it's likely that he would have died in the mortal sins he committed after that baptism if he had not gone to confession before he died.  

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized
    « Reply #18 on: May 06, 2019, 08:38:16 AM »
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  • Quote
    I meant could a baptized ex-Protestant who is still a catechumen in the Catholic Church be saved if he died during his time as a catechumen? 
    If the ex-Protestant was truly baptized, and they were a catechumen, it is logical to assume 1) they want to be part of the Church, 2) they realize the heresies of Protestantism and are ready to reject them, 3) they are sorry for all their sins.
    .
    In this case, were that person to die, they could make a perfect act of contrition and receive forgiveness from God.  They are already baptized so all that is missing is to clean their soul through Confession, which the act of contrition would/could obtain.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized
    « Reply #19 on: May 06, 2019, 09:01:23 AM »
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  • If the ex-Protestant was truly baptized, and they were a catechumen, it is logical to assume 1) they want to be part of the Church, 2) they realize the heresies of Protestantism and are ready to reject them, 3) they are sorry for all their sins.
    .
    In this case, were that person to die, they could make a perfect act of contrition and receive forgiveness from God.  They are already baptized so all that is missing is to clean their soul through Confession, which the act of contrition would/could obtain.
    While it is possible that a person can make a perfect act of contrition, too many people consider an act of perfect contrition to be the same thing as going to confession. This is a very dangerous idea to cling to - even Trent's catechism says as much: "For those who fall into sin after Baptism the Sacrament of Penance is as necessary to salvation as is Baptism for those who have not been already baptized....As he who suffers shipwreck has no hope of safety, unless, perchance, he seize on some plank from the wreck, so he that suffers the shipwreck of baptismal innocence, unless he cling to the saving plank of Penance, has doubtless lost all hope of salvation."

    Just as God provides the time, the minister and the water for the sacrament of baptism to all who ever have and ever will receive it, the same Providence is at work for the sacrament of Penance - and for that matter, also Extreme Unction.


    Also from Trent's catechism:

    Contrition, it is true, blots out sin; but who does not know that to effect this it must be so intense, so ardent, so vehement, as to bear a proportion to the magnitude of the crimes which it effaces? This is a degree of contrition which few reach; and hence, in this way, very few indeed could hope to obtain the pardon of their sins. It, therefore, became necessary that the most merciful Lord should provide by some easier means for the common salvation of men; and this He has done in His admirable wisdom, by giving to His Church the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized
    « Reply #20 on: May 06, 2019, 09:44:49 AM »
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    While it is possible that a person can make a perfect act of contrition, too many people consider an act of perfect contrition to be the same thing as going to confession. This is a very dangerous idea to cling to
    I agree.  But in the make-believe situation where we are dealing with a baptized protestant catechumen, since they aren't yet catholic, they cannot go to Confession.
    .
    What you described is applicable for catholics and your warnings about trusting in an act of contrition are warranted.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized
    « Reply #21 on: May 06, 2019, 09:57:54 AM »
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  • I meant could a baptized ex-Protestant who is still a catechumen in the Catholic Church be saved if he died during his time as a catechumen?

    Protestants don't enter a catechumenate.  They merely have to abjure their heresy.  They might have to go though some classes, but that's not the same as an actual catechumenate.

    Required for membership in the Catholic Church are Baptism (you're assuming a Protestant who has this), profession of the true faith, and subjection to the Holy Father.  Once a Protestant rejects his Protestantism and professes the Catholic faith and the intention to be subject to the Pope (by way of entering the Church), that person is a member of the Church ... despite possibly having to undergo some detailed instruction.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized
    « Reply #22 on: May 06, 2019, 10:01:15 AM »
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  • If the ex-Protestant was truly baptized, and they were a catechumen, it is logical to assume 1) they want to be part of the Church, 2) they realize the heresies of Protestantism and are ready to reject them, 3) they are sorry for all their sins.
    .
    In this case, were that person to die, they could make a perfect act of contrition and receive forgiveness from God.  They are already baptized so all that is missing is to clean their soul through Confession, which the act of contrition would/could obtain.

    Sorry.  I didn't see your response before making mine.  Those who are validly baptized are not catechumens in the strict sense of the term.  They're basically heretics who at some point lost membership in the Church (age of reason usually) by professing a false faith and not being in subjection to the Pope.  Strictly speaking, they need merely abjure their error, profess the true faith and subjection to the Pope, and then they're certainly capable of entering a state of sanctifying grace through a perfect act of contrition.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized
    « Reply #23 on: May 06, 2019, 10:03:46 AM »
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  • While it is possible that a person can make a perfect act of contrition, too many people consider an act of perfect contrition to be the same thing as going to confession.

    Trent explicitly teaches that the act of perfect contrition cannot restore to sanctifying grace unless it's joined with the will/intention to receive the Sacrament of Confession.  That's a large part of the confusion.  So you can be sorry for your sins all you want, but unless you intend to go to Confession at the next reasonable opportunity, there's no restoration to a state of justification (aka sanctifying grace).  So many Catholics, including Traditional Catholics, misunderstand this ... and it's a great peril to souls.  Very few people recognize this requirement for justification through perfect contrition.

    PS -- it's this logic that is often falsely applied to the Sacrament of Baptism.

    And this raises an interesting consideration.  When Trent speaks about votum, typically translated as "desire" in the phrase Baptism of Desire, the word votum actually means an intention or will to receive the Sacrament.  It's more along the lines of "I plan on going to Confession."  But since the unbaptized cannot go to Confession, they cannot have the intention/resolution/plan to do so ... as a mere "I really would like to go to Confession" does not suffice for votum.  Votum is a much stronger word, from which we get our term "vow" or "resolution (of the will)."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized
    « Reply #24 on: August 07, 2019, 09:53:42 AM »
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  • Great point, Ladislaus.  Words matter!  In the English language, the difference between a resolution/vow is quite different than a simple "wish".  As is usual, the latin word is much better at conveying the meaning.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: St. Bellarmine, On the Unbaptized
    « Reply #25 on: August 07, 2019, 10:24:38 AM »
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    Not one of. them perishes, regardless of his age at death; never be it said that a man predestined to life would be permitted to end his life without the sacrament of the Mediator.
    None of us knows who is or isn't predestined.  We cannot say that all catechumens are predestined, so we cannot say that those who die before Baptism will receive it in some mysterious way.  You either die with baptism or not.  It is a sentimental error to assume that all catechumens are predestined, just as it is wrong to say that all priests will be saved.

    Quote
    Certain beginnings of faith, therefore, are like conceptions. Yet, in order to arrive at eternal life, one must not only be conceived but also be born.

    Catechumens are not born into the Faith.  Ergo, they go to Limbo, just like unbaptized infants.

    Quote
    St. Augustine's teaching appears to be: The Grace of Justification (and so supernatural faith and charity) can be obtained by Catechumens before Baptism. Yet, it is only in Baptism that they attain complete regeneration, and this is comparable to being born. And it is only after being born that they attain eternal life. Could it be that those in limbo were awaiting the seal of Christ's Baptism?
    St Augustine never said that those in Limbo can be baptized..  Those catechumens who die unbaptized can go to Limbo and they will be there for all eternity, because they were not "born" into the Faith and cannot attain Eternal Life.

    Quote
    St. Robert admits it is a difficulty to explain how catechumens are saved. It seems best to say catechumens will be saved after Baptism. Because they desired it, God provided it, and thus they were saved, not only upon being conceived, per the example, but actually born.
    Catechumens cannot be saved, only justified.  Ergo, they go to Limbo, if they die before being "born".