Quote from: John Steven

Quote from: Matthew

In LOTR, you are supposed to identify with the Hobbits. End of list.

I'm going way out on a limb here but wouldn't we as men identify with the ... men in the story?  I don't identify with the hobbits at all. I suppose if one is Irish he might identify with a hobbit. I always felt Tolkien modeled them after the Irish.

You're looking at too literal. Hobbits are easy going, petty, disconnected from the troubles of far away lands, and are quite well fed as a people. Sounds like western culture to me.

I completely disagree with the description of the hobbits as disconnected and "well fed" in this negative sense of western culture. They weren't disconnected so much as innocent and humble. They also worked hard for their food, there was no chocolate factory. Their enjoyment in life is very much based on the simple pleasures of life. Simple pleasures are usually very well earned. You work hard and the fruits of your labor are that much sweeter.  

I identify entirely with the hobbits. But I agree there are qualities of both the hobbits and the men that men in particular can identify with; such as their inner struggles between good and evil tendencies, their responsibilities of leadership and protection/provision for the hobbits, their struggles for power amongst themselves. There is a lot there that men can identify with in their struggles here on earth. The men seem to have a rather tortured existence, it's not dissimilar to life on earth.

I would hope however that there is a part of them that at least longs for the peace and serenity in the lands of the hobbits, even if it seems impossible to attain here on earth. To me the hobbits show what life on earth can be in happy and grace-filled times. I think those who live off the land probably have a head start on identifying with the simplicity of the hobbits. There is a certain profound contentedness that is particular to those who love that life. I know some get annoyed by how much better life on the land is touted to be but there really is something there that is not found elsewhere. That experience most definitely helps one along with identifying with the hobbits.

I don't think that readers were meant to 100% identify with Hobbits, moreso to emulate them.  Tokien pictured hobbits as humble, hard-working, simple, fun loving, and loyal.  Most of us fail to live up to these standards and so we fall into greed, pride, anger, power-hungry and vengefunessl - like every other character in the story, (except for Gandalf who acts like a wise old priest).  

I don't think that readers were meant to 100% identify with Hobbits, moreso to emulate them.  Tokien pictured hobbits as humble, hard-working, simple, fun loving, and loyal.  Most of us fail to live up to these standards and so we fall into greed, pride, anger, power-hungry and vengefunessl - like every other character in the story, (except for Gandalf who acts like a wise old priest).  

Think of a country boy in the sixties though. That's the age he wrote it in and honestly nothing of LotR is applicable to modern culture save maybe the Numenoreans becoming pagans and trying to literally attack God.

Quote from: wallflower

Quote from: AnonymousCatholic

Quote from: John Steven

Quote from: Matthew

In LOTR, you are supposed to identify with the Hobbits. End of list.

I'm going way out on a limb here but wouldn't we as men identify with the ... men in the story?  I don't identify with the hobbits at all. I suppose if one is Irish he might identify with a hobbit. I always felt Tolkien modeled them after the Irish.

You're looking at too literal. Hobbits are easy going, petty, disconnected from the troubles of far away lands, and are quite well fed as a people. Sounds like western culture to me.

I completely disagree with the description of the hobbits as disconnected and "well fed" in this negative sense of western culture. They weren't disconnected so much as innocent and humble. They also worked hard for their food, there was no chocolate factory. Their enjoyment in life is very much based on the simple pleasures of life. Simple pleasures are usually very well earned. You work hard and the fruits of your labor are that much sweeter.  

I identify entirely with the hobbits. But I agree there are qualities of both the hobbits and the men that men in particular can identify with; such as their inner struggles between good and evil tendencies, their responsibilities of leadership and protection/provision for the hobbits, their struggles for power amongst themselves. There is a lot there that men can identify with in their struggles here on earth. The men seem to have a rather tortured existence, it's not dissimilar to life on earth.

I would hope however that there is a part of them that at least longs for the peace and serenity in the lands of the hobbits, even if it seems impossible to attain here on earth. To me the hobbits show what life on earth can be in happy and grace-filled times. I think those who live off the land probably have a head start on identifying with the simplicity of the hobbits. There is a certain profound contentedness that is particular to those who love that life. I know some get annoyed by how much better life on the land is touted to be but there really is something there that is not found elsewhere. That experience most definitely helps one along with identifying with the hobbits.

Who said the qualities I described were bad necessarily? You can't be innocent without being disconnected. Look at Gondor for example. Hundreds of years of skirmishing and they all are far from innocent. Noble, yet they harbor a hatred for the enemy and rightly so. Innocence is disconnection. As for well fed, there were no starving hobbits. At least not in the Shire. And this doesn't doubt their hard work. Actually I agree about the simple pleasures thing. In the Hobbit Bilbo only took an acorn and two chests of treasure. He could have bought the entire shire had he took his fair share. But he didn't. You will find no disagreements from me with pretty much everything you said.



As a side note though you won't find the traits described above in the modern west. Now we are more like the greedy dwarves who will end up digging too deep and waking the Balrog.  

I did say petty too and that can be seen in the way the hobbits of Hobbiton started to treat Gandalf when he came around. They knew not his purpose or deeds yet they looked down their noses at him. Despite him being the reason their cozy little nation was allowed to exist free of bondage. Hobbits were all the things listed.

Quote from: Matto

I read somewhere that Tolkien hated the New Mass and that when the people would make the responses in English at the New Mass he would loudly make the responses in latin. He died very early on in the crisis. If he were alive today I believe if he learned about traditional Catholicism he may have become a traditional Catholic.

And I read some passages of his letters where he seemed to expose ecuмenical ideas.

Yes that is true

Quote from: wallflower

Quote from: AnonymousCatholic

You're looking at too literal. Hobbits are easy going, petty, disconnected from the troubles of far away lands, and are quite well fed as a people. Sounds like western culture to me.

I completely disagree with the description of the hobbits as disconnected and "well fed" in this negative sense of western culture. They weren't disconnected so much as innocent and humble. They also worked hard for their food, there was no chocolate factory. Their enjoyment in life is very much based on the simple pleasures of life. Simple pleasures are usually very well earned. You work hard and the fruits of your labor are that much sweeter.  

I identify entirely with the hobbits. But I agree there are qualities of both the hobbits and the men that men in particular can identify with; such as their inner struggles between good and evil tendencies, their responsibilities of leadership and protection/provision for the hobbits, their struggles for power amongst themselves. There is a lot there that men can identify with in their struggles here on earth. The men seem to have a rather tortured existence, it's not dissimilar to life on earth.

I would hope however that there is a part of them that at least longs for the peace and serenity in the lands of the hobbits, even if it seems impossible to attain here on earth. To me the hobbits show what life on earth can be in happy and grace-filled times. I think those who live off the land probably have a head start on identifying with the simplicity of the hobbits. There is a certain profound contentedness that is particular to those who love that life. I know some get annoyed by how much better life on the land is touted to be but there really is something there that is not found elsewhere. That experience most definitely helps one along with identifying with the hobbits.

Who said the qualities I described were bad necessarily? You can't be innocent without being disconnected. Look at Gondor for example. Hundreds of years of skirmishing and they all are far from innocent. Noble, yet they harbor a hatred for the enemy and rightly so. Innocence is disconnection. As for well fed, there were no starving hobbits. At least not in the Shire. And this doesn't doubt their hard work. Actually I agree about the simple pleasures thing. In the Hobbit Bilbo only took an acorn and two chests of treasure. He could have bought the entire shire had he took his fair share. But he didn't. You will find no disagreements from me with pretty much everything you said.



As a side note though you won't find the traits described above in the modern west. Now we are more like the greedy dwarves who will end up digging too deep and waking the Balrog.  

Disconnected still sounds negative to me. But I realize I probably idealize the hobbits too much; they weren't outright saints, just basically good and down to earth. There is still plenty of room for them to have bad habits and weaknesses and often our good qualities become our bad points depending on the context. So you are probably right and they probably were disconnected to a certain extent. I don't think it was willful or from not caring though. I thought in their history they had sent help for skirmishes here and there but I can't remember enough to speak intelligently on it.
 

Croixalist,
I think your expectations are too high.  It's a fiction novel, based in a fictional fantasy world.  In and of itself, there's nothing wrong with that.  God gave us an imagination.

It's not like Tolkien was supposed to write about canon law, or the sacraments, and he came up with lord of the rings.  It's a story, based on catholic ideals.  It's not meant to be a sequel to the Bible.

Alright, alright, I take back what I said in the OP and other posts against Tolkien.

The truth is I hadn't really thought about it that way; all I had thought about was that Harry Potter had magic and Tolkien's books had magic in them too and Gandalf was a wizard so I figured they were the same thing.

But the good posts here from Myth and Anonymous Catholic and the rest have clarified it for me.

This was an embarrassing thread and i started all wrong but im glad about it anyway because some erroneous ideas i had about this have been clarified.

Thanks and I apologise to all.

Oh Disputaciones, how could you be convinced to change your Catholic mind when you were absolutely correct, Tolkien's fiction is as NON-Catholic as Potter's. It reminds me of those who argue Shakespeare's writings are also Catholic even though they are riddled with Masonic symbolisms and from my own studies I believe Shakespeare himself gives the game away when he acts totally out of character by his vicious attack on the integrity of (St) Joan of Arc, treating the English as having ‘God as our fortress’ and the French as being one with the ‘witches and the help of hell’ (Act.II, Sc.1) and ‘Devil, or devil's dam’ (1:5).

Having studied Paula Haigh's (RIP) book on fantasy literature I wrote the following introduction with a view to publish it. Alas she became unwell and the book was never published:

]In 2003, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger denounced the hugely popular ‘Potter’ books of J.K. Rowling. In a letter to a Catholic German Potter critic and author, he condemned the ‘subtle seductions’ of the Potter books that threaten to ‘corrupt the Christian faith in souls even before it could properly grow’. In 2005, in conjunction with the release of the latest Rowling Potter book Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, and in view of the fact that the Cardinal was by then elected as Pope Benedict XVI, this condemnation made world headlines.
     
In the same fantasy literature vein however, are some stories of J.J. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, written many years before the Potter tales of Rowland. Of these, it would be hard to find an opinion poll in the world of popular books and literature that would not have Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings top of that list. Between them then, these authors fairly dominated the fiction market in the 20th century. Indeed, so successful were Lewis’s, Tolkien’s and Rowling’s stories that they were made into movies, breaking attendance records each time. What we can say then - as we enter the third millennium of the Christian era, a time when the Catholic faith is diminishing at an unprecedented pace - is that these fantasy tales have become part of modern culture for countless millions of Christian children and adults worldwide.

It is not a well known maxim that where religion regresses, superstition progresses. Ironically, whereas the Triune God of Catholicism is manifestly missing and the capabilities of Satan are consequently well hidden, the International Association of Exorcists reports an upsurge in demonic possession worldwide. Moreover, today we are also experiencing a proliferation of the occult, spiritualism, spiritual healing, witchcraft, fortune-telling etc., throughout the world. Crimes and behaviour, often violent, including horrific murders, are being committed in the name of Satan himself. The paradox is that although these dark forces are at work around us, there is also an inherent denial that any of it is real, merely the illusions of Christian ‘fundamentalists’.  
     
How then did Lucifer-Satan and his operative demons become trivialised as real beings, as powerful spirits hell-bent on luring us all to damnation with them in hell? Without doubt, fantasy literature played and continues to play a part. ‘Once the truths of Faith cease to be real to the modern mind, other more exciting worlds are invented as a means of escape from the real that no longer appeals to the jaded minds of moderns’ says Miss Haigh.
     
And this is why the drug-crazy free-loving hippies of the 1960s recognised these fantasy tales for what they really are and took as their Bible Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings, and how such books and movies have become the most popular ‘intellectual and spiritual’ pastime for both children and adults in our time.

Given the nature of the subject matter in these books, stories of fantasy worlds, wizards, witches, magic etc., one can understand that they generated, and continue to generate, considerable debate, even in the Church, but especially among Christian parents whose children were/are reading them, some even showing up on the curriculum in their schools as compulsory reading. Instinctively they know there is something wrong with these fantasy stories, but they just cannot put their finger on it. Certainly there are one or two who made a stab at a critique, but all lacked real substance and especially authority. What was needed then, was a proper well-researched thesis on the subject.
 
At the same time, a virtual cataract of apologists, both Catholic and Protestant, traditional and neo-Modernist, writing in books, journals, websites and newspapers throughout the world, dismiss these concerns as unfounded. It seems that the temptation to defend the fantasy literature of the ‘devout Roman Catholic’ Tolkien, the ‘deeply Christian’ Lewis and the ‘Christian living’ Rowling is too great in a world now bereft of popular Christian writers in any sphere.

The point is though, if Tolkien’s, Lewis’s or Rowling’s fantasy tales are Christian, then they should be manifestly Christian, and if they are manifestly Christian then there would be no debate about it. Indeed, we might well ask what do these commentators mean by ‘Christian’? Lauding that the triumph of good over evil or claiming the love and friendship shown between characters in these books makes them ‘Christian’ is patently ridiculous. In the first place such are simply natural virtues and can be found in anyone, even atheists. Secondly, it cannot be denied that these fantasy tales deliberately exclude every precept of Christianity such as the Trinity as Creator, Christ as Saviour, His Church as universal, His Sacraments as necessary, etc., etc. Moreover, these ‘glimmers of Christianity’ offered, fade away into absurdity when compared with arguments against the orthodoxy and dangers of such fantasy literature based on doctrines derived from traditional theology and disciplines. Accordingly, on foot of this principle alone, to counteract the weakness in the apologists’ thinking, we decided to publish this critique written by veteran American author Paula Haigh, a scholar of theology, philosophy and the empirical sciences related to cosmology and evolution.

Before introducing Miss Haigh’s synthesis it must be said that one reason we hesitated to publish until now lies in the fact that the doctrines and prohibitions involved would be viewed today as coming from the ‘Dark Ages’, containing no relevance to twenty-first century Christians. The idea that such harmless reading and adventure fun-giving movies as The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix or The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe could be classed as harmful in any way could only bring disbelief and incredulity from any quarter, and risks being classed as a relic of the past, like Trent or the thinking of the Inquisition, and be discarded as irrelevant. But now Pope Benedict XVI’s earlier condemnation has changed all that. Accordingly, we can no longer stand by as more and more such publications emerge defended by some with their superficial ideas that such fantasy tales offer ‘a Christian vision’. If we are believing-Christians, and are aware of the origin, purpose and end of our religion, then true and accurate doctrine must be available for those who still have a love for truth. Never mind that such theology and insights have been discarded, forgotten, obscured and scorned for many years - truth never changes. If, behind all the fun and adventure there truly lurk deadly serious heresies, the subtle undermining of Christian belief, then it is our Christian duty to inform and be informed.  

Table of Contents

Preface and Introduction                                                                              

Fantasy and Fiction in Literature                                                   1

The Devil and his Demons                                                            11

Fairies and the Four Elements                                                          17

An Infinite Universe and A Plurality of Worlds                           20
                                                                             
Magic Is Demon-Power                                                                28

Demonic Transport                                                                       46

Gnosticism: Ancient and Modern                                                 50
       
Harry Potter and Other Fantasy Literature                                  70

J. R. R. Tolkien                                                                            72
 
C. S.  Lewis                                                                                 108

C. S. Lewis’ Dr Elwin Ransom                                                   114

C. S. Lewis and Evolution                                                          127

C. S. Lewis and Mythology                                                        136

Narnia: A Closer Look                                                                148                    

J.J. Tolkien                                                                                  159

Heaven, Earth and Hell                                                               179

The Real Middle Earth                                                                181