I understand they're great films, but why do so many Catholics seem to enjoy exposing themselves to things like this? Why do so many trads list them as their favorite films? Do they not seem to apologize for the mafia? In an interview with James Caan in the special features in the DVD I watched, he said something like his goal in acting that part was to make the mafia seem like an organization he'd like to join.

Is it just one of the many effects of our own fallen nature and nothing more? Or am I missing something in these movies?

There is a difference between the Godfather films and other modern films in terms of how morality is treated.  I haven't watched any of them in a few years, but as I recall the ramifications of immorality are pretty obvious in the Godfather movies-- in other words, it isn't glorified.

Immorality in any medium (books, movies, etc.) is fine as long as it isn't glorified.  Every story needs a villain.  Without a villain there is no story as there is no conflict.  What's problematic is when the immorality is glorified.  If the immorality is made to look as something detrimental (as I believe it is in the Godfather) then it 'works.'

I understand they're great films, but why do so many Catholics seem to enjoy exposing themselves to things like this? Why do so many trads list them as their favorite films? Do they not seem to apologize for the mafia? In an interview with James Caan in the special features in the DVD I watched, he said something like his goal in acting that part was to make the mafia seem like an organization he'd like to join.

Is it just one of the many effects of our own fallen nature and nothing more? Or am I missing something in these movies?

Many gangs (thought certainly not all) began as local 'neighborhood watch' groups for particular immigrants (Irish, Italian, Mexican, etc.) and were not founded on evil principles.  They were founded to offer support to the immigrants (by the immigrants) when they couldn't find it elsewhere.  Of course, power corrupts and none of these organizations remained true to their founding principles and became extortionists and criminals.  Depending on 'which' mafia you're talking about, this may or may not be true.  Remember when Michael visits Italy?  He's walking through a beautiful town and asks his guide 'where are all the men?'  And the guide says they are all dead from vendettas.  And then, of course, in the second movie there is the background on Vito and we find out that his entire family was killed by a ruthless mafioso.  Much of Vito's character (in Pt I) is built around regret in the life one has chosen, and at the same time the weakness to leave it.  The moral issues of the Godfather are not as obvious as a move like LotR but they are very real, and I think the problem with viewing one comes when the viewer isn't that bright.  The films clearly teach the consequences of evil for a person that already understands that theft, murder, unfaithfulness, etc. are evil.  If a person doesn't see them as wrong to begin with, of course they're going to walk away from the Godfather wanting to be a gangster.

Quote from: Telesphorus

A real problem is that Catholics at some level aren't willing to accept that the film industry is poisonous to their souls.

Yes, that sums it up for me.

I sometimes excuse myself if the film is historical, or historical fiction as I believe these films were.

Quote from: Mithrandylan

There is a difference between the Godfather films and other modern films in terms of how morality is treated.  I haven't watched any of them in a few years, but as I recall the ramifications of immorality are pretty obvious in the Godfather movies-- in other words, it isn't glorified.

Immorality in any medium (books, movies, etc.) is fine as long as it isn't glorified.  Every story needs a villain.  Without a villain there is no story as there is no conflict.  What's problematic is when the immorality is glorified.  If the immorality is made to look as something detrimental (as I believe it is in the Godfather) then it 'works.'

I sympathize very much with the first monologue, and I understand that many of the people involved probably would have liked to have left the gang at some point, but unfortunately they find it about as easy as leaving the masons. But the films glorify the family, and by extension, an entire people, to the point of idol worship. Granted, they behave badly, but I still think they're glorified (as much as an anti-hero could be said to be glorified).

A few months ago I read of a movement of business-people in Palermo that have organized an anti-mafia strategy of declaring their refusal to pay the demanded protection money. They have signs they post in their windows to announce this, and they find it helps business. It seemed that the local dons agreed to avoid retaliation against them. I don't know what the latest news is on that.

Isn't that how evil works, though?  The BTK killer had a wife, family and was secretary at his church.  Very rarely do you find evil in a person and find that it has prevented them from temporal happiness, or prevented them from appearing to be 'good' in at least some avenue.  There are few people whose every action is wholly evil.  Which, of course, makes evil that much more insidious.

Mithrandylan, who's BTK, and what point are you addressing?

BTK was a serial killer.  You can google him.  I probably shouldn't go into details in case there are probably people that would rather not learn about it, but for those interested just google him.  The point I was addressing was the point about the glorification of family in the Godfather extends to glorify the mafia.  If you look at people who do evil things (the mafia, BTK) you're not likely to find that ALL they do are evil things.  That's the 'thing' about evil.  It doesn't prevent one from having 'success' or even from doing some good.  So while it seems that you are making the case that the glorification of family in the mafia works to glorify the mafia by extension* I am making the case that it's simply realistic (that they have big families).

*I don't even know if the Godfather does glorify family.  Remember the scenes with Carlo?  What about Fredo in the boat or at the party?  Or Sonny at his sister's wedding being unfaithful to his wife?  There are instances that remind one of a great big Catholic family, but they are overshadowed by dysfunction.

It seems to be a glorification of the anti-hero.

The anti-hero loses all of his friends, all of his family, and everything he holds dear.  Even by secular standards he 'lost.'  

Quote from: Mithrandylan

The anti-hero loses all of his friends, all of his family, and everything he holds dear.  Even by secular standards he 'lost.'  

Losers are glorified, or apologized for, all the time in our culture.

True, but I don't think they are in the Godfather.   :smile:

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Quote from: MariaCatherine

Quote from: Mithrandylan

The anti-hero loses all of his friends, all of his family, and everything he holds dear.  Even by secular standards he 'lost.'  

Losers are glorified, or apologized for, all the time in our culture.

True, but I don't think they are in the Godfather.   :smile:

No anti-heroes in those films? What do you call them? Cultural Catholics? CINOs? Labels. I want labels.

You said "losers are glorified, etc. etc."

And I said "yes they are, but not in the Godfather."