Author Topic: The Silmarillion  (Read 3029 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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The Silmarillion
« on: October 14, 2021, 01:32:23 PM »
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  • Last year, on the advice of some forum members, I read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, and really enjoyed them.

    I’m wondering if any have read the Silmarillion, and if so, how it compares to the previously mentioned more popular works?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Online Stanley N

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #1 on: October 14, 2021, 01:51:49 PM »
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  • It has the fictional mythology behind the other books..

    If that's your interest, go for it. I found it tedious.


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #2 on: October 14, 2021, 02:05:05 PM »
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  • The Silmarillion reads a bit like Scripture of the Old Testament variety.

    I found it a very rich text, along with the expanded versions of parts therein such Beten and Luthien, Children of Hurin, and The Tall of Gondolin.

    If you have the time Sean, listen to the music unabridged reading of The Silmarillion as read by Marin Shaw. It adds drama to the reading and perhaps might not seem as tedious as the generally more readable works. YouTube does have The Silmarillion ideo/audio plus I have everything audio wise of Tolkien’s works that can be shared.:cowboy:
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
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    Online DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #3 on: October 14, 2021, 04:03:55 PM »
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  • I think the Music of the Ainur is one of the most amazing pseudo-mythologies I've ever read. That being said, it is a tedious book, so I've never even made it half-way through. I also have had very little desire to read fiction over the past few years.

    If I ever get back to a desire to read fiction, I think I'll give it another shot.
    "The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #4 on: October 14, 2021, 04:14:33 PM »
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  • Some more lighter but equally good reading, I would suggest either reading or listening to “Tales from the Perilous Realm” ;)
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #5 on: October 14, 2021, 04:29:08 PM »
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  • The satanists of the "Gnostic Catholic Church" love the Silmarillion. They say it's the key to the work of the beloved author.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Online DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #6 on: October 14, 2021, 05:07:38 PM »
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  • The satanists of the "Gnostic Catholic Church" love the Silmarillion. They say it's the key to the work of the beloved author.
    Okay? Is this meant to be some sort of implicit condemnation of Tolkien's work? :confused:

    Protestants love the Bible, but that doesn't make the Bible evil.
    "The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

    Memento mori

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #7 on: October 14, 2021, 09:28:52 PM »
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  • The satanists of the "Gnostic Catholic Church" love the Silmarillion. They say it's the key to the work of the beloved author.
    Who are these satanists?
    Oft hope is born when all is forlorn.
                                          J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King


    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #8 on: October 15, 2021, 04:25:08 AM »
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  • Okay? Is this meant to be some sort of implicit condemnation of Tolkien's work? :confused:

    Protestants love the Bible, but that doesn't make the Bible evil.

    It is meant as a hint for readers interested in the truth.

    Protestants love forged versions of the Bible.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #10 on: October 15, 2021, 07:42:34 AM »
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  • Marion-

    Are you saying there is Gnosticism in the works of Tolkien, or just that the Gnostics have misappropriated/used his works toward their own ends?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #11 on: October 15, 2021, 01:04:46 PM »
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  • Are you saying there is Gnosticism in the works of Tolkien, or just that the Gnostics have misappropriated/used his works toward their own ends?

    They love Tolkien for several reasons:

    - Tolkien's fantasies are based on his "mythopoetic" Silmarillion, the origin of which they accept as a truely gnostic source ("genuine experience" like "that of C. G. Jung's").
    - Tolkien's fantasies are based on a cosmogonic/cosmologic myth which resembles the elaborate manichaean dualistic cosmogony/cosmology.
    - Tolkien's fantasies are peppered with gnostic ideas.

    If you want to read the Silmarillion, I recommend you listen to the following interview first, in which gnostic scholar Lance S. Owens explains this in more detail: "J.R.R. Tolkien, C.G. Jung and Gnostic tradition." (audio) A link to the audio can be found on the following page: gnosis.org/tolkien.

    I don't think it's possible to accuse them of misuse of Tolkien's work. Owens says that Tolkien had no contact to esoteric agencies, but that he delved into Alchemy, Hermeticism, Kaballah in Zürich in the 1930s, and he mentions the hardly deniable influence of the occultist Inklings Charles Williams (Fellowship of the Rosy Cross), Owen Barfield (Anthroposophist), and Robert E. Harvard (Freudian analyst, Tolkiens lifelong personal physician).

    Whether one does or does not care about what Gnostics say, the dualistic cosmogony in the Silmarillion (Owens interview 18'41"), the dualistic reality of evil instead of Catholic evil is privation of good (37'25"), as well as other gnosticisms are present in Tolkien's work.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #12 on: October 15, 2021, 01:41:06 PM »
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  • Melkor was one of the Ainur who was good but rebelled, later to become Morgoth. That doesn’t sound gnostic as it does more parallel God and the fall of Lucifer in the biblical account.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Online Stanley N

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #13 on: October 15, 2021, 02:20:55 PM »
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  • Melkor was one of the Ainur who was good but rebelled, later to become Morgoth. That doesn’t sound gnostic as it does more parallel God and the fall of Lucifer in the biblical account.

    I would agree there are probably more Biblical parallels than not.

    Nevertheless, in this mythology, Melkor contributed to creation as or after he "fell". Thus creation is inherently flawed.

    One might say that's most analogous to Manichaeism, but Manichaeism is a flavour of ghnosticism.

    And please don't misunderstand. I enjoy the books and I think Tolkein's non-fiction makes it clear he was serious about his Catholicism.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #14 on: October 15, 2021, 02:28:58 PM »
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  • They love Tolkien for several reasons:

    - Tolkien's fantasies are based on his "mythopoetic" Silmarillion, the origin of which they accept as a truely gnostic source ("genuine experience" like "that of C. G. Jung's").
    - Tolkien's fantasies are based on a cosmogonic/cosmologic myth which resembles the elaborate manichaean dualistic cosmogony/cosmology.
    - Tolkien's fantasies are peppered with gnostic ideas.

    If you want to read the Silmarillion, I recommend you listen to the following interview first, in which gnostic scholar Lance S. Owens explains this in more detail: "J.R.R. Tolkien, C.G. Jung and Gnostic tradition." (audio) A link to the audio can be found on the following page: gnosis.org/tolkien.

    I don't think it's possible to accuse them of misuse of Tolkien's work. Owens says that Tolkien had no contact to esoteric agencies, but that he delved into Alchemy, Hermeticism, Kaballah in Zürich in the 1930s, and he mentions the hardly deniable influence of the occultist Inklings Charles Williams (Fellowship of the Rosy Cross), Owen Barfield (Anthroposophist), and Robert E. Harvard (Freudian analyst, Tolkiens lifelong personal physician).

    Whether one does or does not care about what Gnostics say, the dualistic cosmogony in the Silmarillion (Owens interview 18'41"), the dualistic reality of evil instead of Catholic evil is privation of good (37'25"), as well as other gnosticisms are present in Tolkien's work.

    I had no idea!
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-