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Author Topic: The Silmarillion  (Read 5642 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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The Silmarillion
« on: October 14, 2021, 01:32:23 PM »
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    • Last year, on the advice of some forum members, I read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, and really enjoyed them.

    I’m wondering if any have read the Silmarillion, and if so, how it compares to the previously mentioned more popular works?
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #1 on: October 14, 2021, 01:51:49 PM »
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    • It has the fictional mythology behind the other books..

    If that's your interest, go for it. I found it tedious.
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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #2 on: October 14, 2021, 02:05:05 PM »
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    • The Silmarillion reads a bit like Scripture of the Old Testament variety.

    I found it a very rich text, along with the expanded versions of parts therein such Beten and Luthien, Children of Hurin, and The Tall of Gondolin.

    If you have the time Sean, listen to the music unabridged reading of The Silmarillion as read by Marin Shaw. It adds drama to the reading and perhaps might not seem as tedious as the generally more readable works. YouTube does have The Silmarillion ideo/audio plus I have everything audio wise of Tolkien’s works that can be shared.:cowboy:
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #3 on: October 14, 2021, 04:03:55 PM »
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    • I think the Music of the Ainur is one of the most amazing pseudo-mythologies I've ever read. That being said, it is a tedious book, so I've never even made it half-way through. I also have had very little desire to read fiction over the past few years.

    If I ever get back to a desire to read fiction, I think I'll give it another shot.
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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #4 on: October 14, 2021, 04:14:33 PM »
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    • Some more lighter but equally good reading, I would suggest either reading or listening to “Tales from the Perilous Realm” ;)
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #5 on: October 14, 2021, 04:29:08 PM »
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    • The satanists of the "Gnostic Catholic Church" love the Silmarillion. They say it's the key to the work of the beloved author.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #6 on: October 14, 2021, 05:07:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on October 14, 2021, 04:29:08 PM
    The satanists of the "Gnostic Catholic Church" love the Silmarillion. They say it's the key to the work of the beloved author.
    Okay? Is this meant to be some sort of implicit condemnation of Tolkien's work? :confused:

    Protestants love the Bible, but that doesn't make the Bible evil.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #7 on: October 14, 2021, 09:28:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on October 14, 2021, 04:29:08 PM
    The satanists of the "Gnostic Catholic Church" love the Silmarillion. They say it's the key to the work of the beloved author.
    Who are these satanists?
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #8 on: October 15, 2021, 04:25:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on October 14, 2021, 05:07:38 PM
    Okay? Is this meant to be some sort of implicit condemnation of Tolkien's work? :confused:

    Protestants love the Bible, but that doesn't make the Bible evil.

    It is meant as a hint for readers interested in the truth.

    Protestants love forged versions of the Bible.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #9 on: October 15, 2021, 04:26:37 AM »
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #10 on: October 15, 2021, 07:42:34 AM »
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    • Marion-

    Are you saying there is Gnosticism in the works of Tolkien, or just that the Gnostics have misappropriated/used his works toward their own ends?
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #11 on: October 15, 2021, 01:04:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 15, 2021, 07:42:34 AM
    Are you saying there is Gnosticism in the works of Tolkien, or just that the Gnostics have misappropriated/used his works toward their own ends?

    They love Tolkien for several reasons:

    - Tolkien's fantasies are based on his "mythopoetic" Silmarillion, the origin of which they accept as a truely gnostic source ("genuine experience" like "that of C. G. Jung's").
    - Tolkien's fantasies are based on a cosmogonic/cosmologic myth which resembles the elaborate manichaean dualistic cosmogony/cosmology.
    - Tolkien's fantasies are peppered with gnostic ideas.

    If you want to read the Silmarillion, I recommend you listen to the following interview first, in which gnostic scholar Lance S. Owens explains this in more detail: "J.R.R. Tolkien, C.G. Jung and Gnostic tradition." (audio) A link to the audio can be found on the following page: gnosis.org/tolkien.

    I don't think it's possible to accuse them of misuse of Tolkien's work. Owens says that Tolkien had no contact to esoteric agencies, but that he delved into Alchemy, Hermeticism, Kaballah in Zürich in the 1930s, and he mentions the hardly deniable influence of the occultist Inklings Charles Williams (Fellowship of the Rosy Cross), Owen Barfield (Anthroposophist), and Robert E. Harvard (Freudian analyst, Tolkiens lifelong personal physician).

    Whether one does or does not care about what Gnostics say, the dualistic cosmogony in the Silmarillion (Owens interview 18'41"), the dualistic reality of evil instead of Catholic evil is privation of good (37'25"), as well as other gnosticisms are present in Tolkien's work.
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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #12 on: October 15, 2021, 01:41:06 PM »
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    • Melkor was one of the Ainur who was good but rebelled, later to become Morgoth. That doesn’t sound gnostic as it does more parallel God and the fall of Lucifer in the biblical account.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #13 on: October 15, 2021, 02:20:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Kazimierz on October 15, 2021, 01:41:06 PM
    Melkor was one of the Ainur who was good but rebelled, later to become Morgoth. That doesn’t sound gnostic as it does more parallel God and the fall of Lucifer in the biblical account.

    I would agree there are probably more Biblical parallels than not.

    Nevertheless, in this mythology, Melkor contributed to creation as or after he "fell". Thus creation is inherently flawed.

    One might say that's most analogous to Manichaeism, but Manichaeism is a flavour of ghnosticism.

    And please don't misunderstand. I enjoy the books and I think Tolkein's non-fiction makes it clear he was serious about his Catholicism.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #14 on: October 15, 2021, 02:28:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on October 15, 2021, 01:04:46 PM
    They love Tolkien for several reasons:

    - Tolkien's fantasies are based on his "mythopoetic" Silmarillion, the origin of which they accept as a truely gnostic source ("genuine experience" like "that of C. G. Jung's").
    - Tolkien's fantasies are based on a cosmogonic/cosmologic myth which resembles the elaborate manichaean dualistic cosmogony/cosmology.
    - Tolkien's fantasies are peppered with gnostic ideas.

    If you want to read the Silmarillion, I recommend you listen to the following interview first, in which gnostic scholar Lance S. Owens explains this in more detail: "J.R.R. Tolkien, C.G. Jung and Gnostic tradition." (audio) A link to the audio can be found on the following page: gnosis.org/tolkien.

    I don't think it's possible to accuse them of misuse of Tolkien's work. Owens says that Tolkien had no contact to esoteric agencies, but that he delved into Alchemy, Hermeticism, Kaballah in Zürich in the 1930s, and he mentions the hardly deniable influence of the occultist Inklings Charles Williams (Fellowship of the Rosy Cross), Owen Barfield (Anthroposophist), and Robert E. Harvard (Freudian analyst, Tolkiens lifelong personal physician).

    Whether one does or does not care about what Gnostics say, the dualistic cosmogony in the Silmarillion (Owens interview 18'41"), the dualistic reality of evil instead of Catholic evil is privation of good (37'25"), as well as other gnosticisms are present in Tolkien's work.

    I had no idea!
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