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Author Topic: The Silmarillion  (Read 5641 times)

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Offline bilbobaggins

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Re: The Silmarillion
« Reply #90 on: October 23, 2021, 11:06:51 AM »
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  • Tolkien "cordially dislikes" the Sacred Scriptures, which are full of allegories.



    Tolkien prefers fables over Scripture:

    Freemasons love myths (surrounding Solomon’s Temple), Rosicrucians love myths (Christian Rosenkreuz), Hermeticists love myths (Thoth / Hermes), Theosophists or generally: occultists love myths. And pagans love myths: most famous Greeks, Egyptians, and Romans. And Heretics love myths: Meister Eckart.

    The Sacred Scriptures do not contain any myths, at all. They express certain transcendent truths in intelligible form using allegory.

    Tolkien "cordially dislikes" the Sacred Scriptures.

    This is your logic. Protestant's love the bible, therefore Catholics cannot like the bible or they must be protestants. Any catholic who quotes the bible must believe in protestant's bible only theology. 


    Tolkien never said he disliked the scriptures, never. He disliked straight allegory only. This is a preference in story nothing to do with Gnosticism. 

    Tolkien held a strong dislike for straight allegory. For example, some early readers of Tolkiens claimed The One Ring represented the atomic bomb or that Saruman represented Hitler. All these kinds of direct allegories Tolkien rejected. He even avoided what he called the "dominion of the author" that forced a specific interpretation or conclusion on the reader, which he taught allegory was guilty of.

    Tolkien objected to straight purposeful allegory one for one meaning, so the ring does not resemble the atomic bomb or alike and like exchange. Tolkien said, "I dislike allegory-the conscious and intentional allegory." Soon after he wrote the above, he said his writings were allegory "anyways, all this stuff is mainly concerned with the fall, morality, and the machine." He gave many reasons for what his books were about; the fall of man, morality, God, religion, the machine, life, power, free will, death, dominion, and languages were among them.  

    Tolkien gave us the answer to sort this all out when he wrote that authors "all exemplify principles but do not represent them." A writer's worldview will shine through in his writings without needing to use allegory. Tolkien realized that any author's work will result from his thoughts and beliefs about the world but are not a direct allegory for them. Instead, his writings, Tolkien said, "absorbed" his worldview and displayed his own "reflections and values." Tolkien loved many of the Anglo-Saxon writings deeply incorporated into a Christian worldview, yet few were direct allegories.  By reading Tolkien, whether conscious or not, we get a glimpse into his worldview, his most fundamental beliefs about the world. 

    A closer evaluation will show Tolkien's mythology so closely resembles who he was that he thought his works an autobiography. He wrote, "I shall never write any ordered biography; it is against my nature, which expresses itself about things deepest felt in tales and myths." When The Lord of the Rings was set to be released, Tolkien was anxious because he said, "I have exposed my heart to be shot" since it was "written in my life-blood." Carpenter agreed, "his real biography is The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion, for the truth about him lies within their pages." This has always been valid with authors. Medieval historian Regine Peroud wrote, "Myths and legends and fables and tales teach more about the history of mankind and its nature than a good part of the prescribed subjects by the official syllabi today."




    Offline bilbobaggins

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #91 on: October 23, 2021, 11:11:35 AM »
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  • "Any close scrutiny of his life must take account of the importance of his religion. His commitment to Christianity and, in particular, the Catholic Church was total."
    -Humphrey Carpenter J.R.R Tolkien a Biography Houghton Mifflin Company Boston New York 2000

    "The Lord of the rings and, by extension, his broader legendarium, is at its core and foundation, or as one might say in its essential nature, based on religious, and specifically Catholic, beliefs and thought."

    -Carl F. Hostetter The Nature of Middle-earth Late Writings on the Lands, Inhabitants, and metaphysics of Middle-earth Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Boston NY 2021

    "Tolkien Christian faith-inspired and informed the writer's imagination...transcendent truths of Christianity bubble up throughout this story."
    -Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware Finding God in the Lord of the Rings Salt River 2001


    In letters 142, Tolkien wrote "The Lord of the Rings is, of course, a fundamentally religious and Catholic work," And "I am a Christian and of course what I write will be from that essential viewpoint." In letters 233, he said the morality of his work "is explicitly linked to the Lord's Prayer." His writings were in no way an allegory for Christianity; instead, Tolkien said, "the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." Carpenter said, "he wanted the mythology and legendary stories to express his own moral view of the universe." As such, he included many Christian themes in his works and as a devout Catholic, Tolkien's worldview could not be hidden from his works.  

    His faith influenced his writings to such a degree that he expected to be known as a Christian author by any who read his mythology, "I am a Christian, that fact can be deduced from my stories." David Day in The Battles of Tolkien quotes Tolkien as saying, "myth and fairy-story must, as in all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth." At a lecture at Saint Andrew's, Tolkien said it was specifically a Christian venture to write The Lord of the Rings. And at the presupposition level, his mythology is Christian. W.H Auden observed: "the unstated presuppositions of the whole work are Christian." Author, Devin Brown in The Christian World of the Hobbit, writes, "Tolkien's Christian beliefs are a fundamental part of the story from start to finish." 

    His writings were not, nor were they intended to be a Gospel tract. Yet, The Lord of the Rings has even converted some to Christianity. A recent politician running for governor in my home state of Vermont was converted in part due to Tolkien. Another example is an online account by Fredric Heidemann, I was an atheist until I read Lord of the Rings. Finally, I know of an online acquaintance who was converted simply by reading The Lord of the Rings. An atheist wrote Tolkien, "you create a world in which some sort of faith seems to be everywhere without a visible source, like a light from an invisible lamp." This was the kind of effect Tolkien desired. 

    To the devout Catholic Tolkien, the modern world had fallen from the faith. So he tried to convey his faith through a tale in a way that might be more acceptable and better received. God himself is known as a storyteller as he uses that method often in the Bible. In The Secrets of Middle-earth, Carpenter says, "It is a very religious book... it's a book that tries to convey the feeling of religion to a world which is not actually a believing world...a godless modern world." 

    Tolkien never saw himself as the actual author of his works since, without God, he would have no mind, and since his imagination originated from God, his stories did as well. Because of this understanding, Tolkien also believed that "the only just literary critic is Christ," because of "the gifts he himself bestowed." How true he was to Christ in his writings mattered more than any human critic. His fantasy had only entered his mind because God had first created his imagination, so, in a way, he just discovered what had originated from God. Or, as Carpenter described, "his imaginative inventions must originate from God, and must, in consequence, reflect something of eternal truth." Tolkien said he felt a spirit was working through him while writing, which he attributed to God.





    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #92 on: October 23, 2021, 01:12:56 PM »
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  • The Silmarillion is fine.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #93 on: October 31, 2021, 10:05:45 AM »
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  • Please elaborate
    I was just mocking his attitude that fiction can be heretical. By his logic, the nursery rhyme Baa Baa Black Sheep is also heretical for the reasons I gave. Keep it away from your kids!!!

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #94 on: October 31, 2021, 01:06:31 PM »
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  • I was just mocking his attitude that fiction can be heretical. By his logic, the nursery rhyme Baa Baa Black Sheep is also heretical for the reasons I gave. Keep it away from your kids!!!

    But Milton’s “Paradise Lost” was also fiction, and ended up on the Index presumably because it contained heresy (granted, Milton was discussing an historical event connected to revelation, whereas Tolkein’s work is completely unrelated).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #95 on: November 03, 2021, 07:11:17 AM »
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  • But Milton’s “Paradise Lost” was also fiction, and ended up on the Index presumably because it contained heresy (granted, Milton was discussing an historical event connected to revelation, whereas Tolkein’s work is completely unrelated).
    Well for one it was severely blasphemous, and the other is to what extent it was intended to be fictional is questionable. Milton is known to have had strange and heterodox beliefs even by Protestant standards.

    It's not really on the same level as a fairy tale. I mean many of the myths and fairy tales of the past are only available to us because Catholic monks transcribed them. They actually went out of their way to preserve these stories.