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Author Topic: The Silmarillion  (Read 5655 times)

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Offline Kazimierz

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Re: The Silmarillion
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2021, 09:44:25 PM »
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  • I’d need to think about that for a while.

    Why do you think so many trads like Tolkien if his works are peppered with gnostic content (that’s an honest question, not a challenge)?
    There is One God in middle earth. One God that created the Ainur.
    Melkor rebelled like Satan. Sauron was once fair but was also corrupted, and is only a lieutenant of Morgorth/Melkor.
    I don’t see dualism at all here. It is a monotheism, Eru who is also called Illuvatar is God.

    I have studied Tolkien and his works for more than twenty years and have continued to discover the Catholicity of his work.

    I have come across a few trad parents when I taught in an SSPX who were Puritanical when it came to literature. Why read the pagan classics? Why read certain Shakespeare plays and so on. Theirs was not a Catholic mindset but again Puritanism disguised in Trad Catholic wrappings.

    Any who rail gainst Tolkien protest way too much.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #31 on: October 15, 2021, 09:53:19 PM »
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  • There is One God in middle earth. One God that created the Ainur.
    Melkor rebelled like Satan. Sauron was once fair but was also corrupted, and is only a lieutenant of Morgorth/Melkor.
    I don’t see dualism at all here. It is a monotheism, Eru who is also called Illuvatar is God.

    I have studied Tolkien and his works for more than twenty years and have continued to discover the Catholicity of his work.

    I have come across a few trad parents when I taught in an SSPX who were Puritanical when it came to literature. Why read the pagan classics? Why read certain Shakespeare plays and so on. Theirs was not a Catholic mindset but again Puritanism disguised in Trad Catholic wrappings.

    Any who rail gainst Tolkien protest way too much.

    :popcorn:

    Interesting and perplexing that Tolkien could be so polarizing.

    Evenly numbered adherents and opponents across all parties within traddieland, all with good arguments.

    Not sure what to make of it, or which side is right.

    I wonder why that is?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #32 on: October 15, 2021, 10:22:16 PM »
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  • I have come across a few trad parents when I taught in an SSPX who were Puritanical when it came to literature. Why read the pagan classics? Why read certain Shakespeare plays and so on. Theirs was not a Catholic mindset but again Puritanism disguised in Trad Catholic wrappings.

    Any who rail gainst Tolkien protest way too much.
    Precisely. I think it has everything to do with the one analyzing the work more than the work itself. It never tries to deceptively present itself as Catholicism as a heretic would do. Which is why Marion's comparison to heresy doesn't work.

    This puritanical mindset, as you call it, stems from superstition. I see the same thing all the time with Protestant analyses of entertainment, this fear of anything that is mildly "occult" as if it has the power to force you into paganism or satanism. It's ridiculous.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #33 on: October 15, 2021, 10:37:10 PM »
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  • Stanley N said it before on page one of this thread. Tolkien's fabulous creation is tainted or "corrupted" by Morgoth's/Melkor's disharmonies:

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    Before the creation of Eä and Arda (The Universe and the World), Melkor was the most powerful of the Ainur, the "angelic beings" created by Eru Ilúvatar (analogous to God). Melkor, dissatisfied that Eru had abandoned the Void, had sought to emulate his creator and fill the Void with sentient beings. This, however, required the Flame Imperishable, the Secret Fire, which belonged to Eru alone; though Melkor searched for this, he could not find it. In what he hoped would be an alternative expression of his own originality and creativity, he contended with Eru in the Music of the Ainur, introducing what he perceived to be themes of his own.[T 8]
    During the Great Music of the Ainur, Melkor attempted to alter the Music and introduced what he believed to be elements purely of his own design. As part of these efforts, he drew many weaker-willed Ainur to him, creating a counter to Eru's main theme. Ironically, these attempts did not truly subvert the Music, but only elaborated Eru's original intentions: the Music of Eru took on depth and beauty precisely because of the strife and sadness Melkor's disharmonies (and measures to rectify them) introduced. Unlike his fellow Ainu Aulë, Melkor was too proud to admit that his creations were simply discoveries made possible entirely by Eru. Instead, Melkor aspired to the level of Eru, the true creator of all possibilities.[T 8]
    Since the Great Music of the Ainur stood as template for all of history and all of material creation in the Middle-earth cycle (it was first sung before Time, and then the universe was made in its image), the chaos introduced into the Music by Melkor's disharmonies was responsible for all evil in Arda, and everything in Middle-earth was tainted or "corrupted" by his influence.[T 8] Tolkien elaborates on this in Morgoth's Ring, drawing an analogy between the One Ring, into which Sauron committed much of his power, and all of Arda—"Morgoth's Ring"—which contains and is corrupted by the residue of Melkor's power until the Remaking of the World (analogous to the Apocalypse).[T 9]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgoth



    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #34 on: October 15, 2021, 10:39:48 PM »
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  • This puritanical mindset, as you call it, stems from superstition. I see the same thing all the time with Protestant analyses of entertainment, this fear of anything that is mildly "occult" as if it has the power to force you into paganism or satanism. It's ridiculous.

    Please, stop posting nonsensical ad hominem comments! Start commenting specifically on the work of Tolkien instead! Same for Kazimierz and his "Puritanical SSPX parents". Please, address what's being presented here in this thread, Mr. Judenviertel von Krakau.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #35 on: October 16, 2021, 10:43:20 AM »
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  • Please, stop posting nonsensical ad hominem comments! Start commenting specifically on the work of Tolkien instead! Same for Kazimierz and his "Puritanical SSPX parents". Please, address what's being presented here in this thread, Mr. Judenviertel von Krakau.
    Who died and made you Sauron?

    Yeesh. 
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline richard

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #36 on: October 16, 2021, 11:35:07 AM »
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  • All of the works of Tolkien are works of fiction, meaning they are not true, a fairy tale. I do not understand why all the angst and anger over fiction. I have read the Hobbit and the Trilogy twice and enjoyed them immensely, but I always knew that the were fiction, you know like an adult.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #37 on: October 16, 2021, 12:07:53 PM »
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  • All of the works of Tolkien are works of fiction, meaning they are not true, a fairy tale. I do not understand why all the angst and anger over fiction. I have read the Hobbit and the Trilogy twice and enjoyed them immensely, but I always knew that the were fiction, you know like an adult.
    This this this.

    Stop being so irrational over a story.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #38 on: October 16, 2021, 12:15:36 PM »
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  • We have to have some literature to read. I don't see the problem with the works of Tolkien, who was a Catholic.

    We could all do much worse, to say the least.

    I think any criticism is really nit-picking and over-reacting.

    It wouldn't be the first time Trad(s) went down the rabbit hole of "perfection" and ended up alone and/or in grave error. I'm not talking about true perfection, I'm talking about scrutinizing out imperfections. Before you know it, you can't associate with anyone, buy from anyone, watch anything, read anything, or attend Mass anywhere. That's what I'm talking about.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #39 on: October 16, 2021, 01:47:07 PM »
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  • And heresy is an offense against Our Lord. Heresy is always fiction an never true or real.
    Heresy is fiction but fiction isn't heresy. No one's claiming the deities in fantasy novels are real.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #40 on: October 16, 2021, 01:49:10 PM »
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  • I can only guess: Montini was an occultist. The Vatican Council was occultist. Neo-modernism is occultist, I'd call it magic or theurgy. I imagine that all this O.T.O., Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Hermeticism, Rosicrucianism, Alchemism, Kaballah, etc. pp. stuff was common and widespread all over the clerus and the whole hierarchy, well before the wretched Council. The Tavistock Institute of Human Relations was just one branch leading the youth astray. Another one was "the danger [...] present almost in the very veins and heart of the Church" (Pius X, Pascendi).
    Tolkein was famously against the NO and yet you accuse his support to be some V2 ploy?


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #41 on: October 16, 2021, 05:38:31 PM »
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  • Stanley N said it before on page one of this thread. Tolkien's fabulous creation is tainted or "corrupted" by Morgoth's/Melkor's disharmonies:

    Again, to be clear, I like LOTR and the Hobbit. They're among the best English literature has to offer (certainly from the 20th century), with deep understanding of human nature, sin and virtue.

    But they're not "historical fiction". LOTR exists in a fictional universe with its own fictional mythology. I don't see a problem with that.

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #42 on: October 17, 2021, 09:21:27 AM »
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  • https://www.cathinfo.com/art-and-literature-for-catholics/why-does-tolkien-get-a-pass-but-not-harry-potter/

    ?


    Thanks, Stanley, for this link. And thanks cassini for posting several chapters of Paula Haigh's book on Tolkien's and others' fables. For readers with limited time, I'd recommend Chapter One (about such literature in general) and Chapter Fourteen (about the gnostic creation in Tolkien's Silmarillion).

    God hates heresy, even in fables. For what purpose would a Catholic want to invent such dung? For what purpose would a Catholic want to read such dung?
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #43 on: October 17, 2021, 09:25:34 AM »
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  • Again, to be clear, I like LOTR and the Hobbit. They're among the best English literature has to offer (certainly from the 20th century), with deep understanding of human nature, sin and virtue.

    Someone commented in the other thread:

    Quote
    You cannot speak against the sacred cow of Tolkien.

    It seems you feel yourself forced to insist "Again, to be clear, I like LOTR and the Hobbit." As if being indifferent, or hating these and such heretical fables were sinful.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #44 on: October 17, 2021, 09:28:23 AM »
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  • Tolkein was famously against the NO and yet you accuse his support to be some V2 ploy?

    There are legions of TLM folks around who are modernist or even gnostic. Whether they conciously work as part of a ploy or they don't.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)