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Author Topic: The Silmarillion  (Read 5657 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: The Silmarillion
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2021, 02:36:10 PM »
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    • Does anyone recall the battle here 3-4 years ago between Mithrandylan (pro Tolkien) vs Samual Loeman (contra Tolkien)?

    I would love to revisit that thread, having now a couple Tolkien books under my belt.

    It was like watching a heavyweight fight where every post/punch seemed to end the fight, only to be countered by a tremendous and unexpected counterpunch.

    If anyone can unearth that thread, it might save a lot of virtual ink.

    Ps: Are the accusations of Gnosticism in Tolkien’s work limited to the Silmarillion?  I can’t recall picking up on those themes in LOTR or The Hobbit, but then I wasn’t really looking for them either.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #16 on: October 15, 2021, 04:06:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 15, 2021, 02:36:10 PM
    Does anyone recall the battle here 3-4 years ago between Mithrandylan (pro Tolkien) vs Samual Loeman (contra Tolkien)?
    https://www.cathinfo.com/art-and-literature-for-catholics/why-does-tolkien-get-a-pass-but-not-harry-potter/

    ?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #17 on: October 15, 2021, 04:17:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on October 15, 2021, 04:06:21 PM
    https://www.cathinfo.com/art-and-literature-for-catholics/why-does-tolkien-get-a-pass-but-not-harry-potter/

    ?

    Hi Stanley-

    This doesn’t look like the one, because Samuel (who posted in his own name) was not involved in it.

    BUT, scrolling through, it does look like it hits on interesting topics, so thanks for posting!
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #18 on: October 15, 2021, 05:11:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on October 15, 2021, 04:06:21 PM
    https://www.cathinfo.com/art-and-literature-for-catholics/why-does-tolkien-get-a-pass-but-not-harry-potter/

    ?
    Fiction is fiction. If Harry Potter doesn't scandalize someone personally, then so be it. The same with LoTR or any other medium of entertainment. I speak as someone who used to attempt to fill that void in my soul where God and His Church was supposed to be with the "lore" of Star Wars, Dragon Ball and other ridiculous fantasy worlds.

    If you're firm in your faith, and not putting these things before God, then I don't see the harm in enjoying a good as a good. All good comes from God anyway.
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    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

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    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #19 on: October 15, 2021, 05:45:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on October 15, 2021, 05:11:17 PM
    Fiction is fiction.

    And heresy is an offense against Our Lord. Heresy is always fiction an never true or real.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #20 on: October 15, 2021, 06:05:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on October 15, 2021, 05:45:11 PM
    And heresy is an offense against Our Lord. Heresy is always fiction an never true or real.
    Indeed. And yet fiction such as King Arthur or the various mythologies of the pagans, which had magic in their stories, were never condemned by the Church as such because it was obvious that it was not trying to convince anyone of its error as a heretic would. Even monks spent their years transcribing pagan works for the preservation.
    Were they or were they not promoting error and heresy?
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #21 on: October 15, 2021, 07:36:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on October 15, 2021, 06:05:25 PM
    Indeed. And yet fiction such as King Arthur or the various mythologies of the pagans, which had magic in their stories, were never condemned by the Church as such because it was obvious that it was not trying to convince anyone of its error as a heretic would. Even monks spent their years transcribing pagan works for the preservation.
    Were they or were they not promoting error and heresy?

    Why do you mention this? Do you think that there are not only gnostic but also pagan ideas in Tolkien's work? And do you think that that's obvious and well known to Catholics?
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #22 on: October 15, 2021, 07:46:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on October 15, 2021, 07:36:22 PM
    Why do you mention this? Do you think that there are not only gnostic but also pagan ideas in Tolkien's work? And do you think that that's obvious and well known to Catholics?
    There certainly are. The man was in love with Norse mythology and the language itself. What he presents in the Silmarillion is a melding of both Christian ideas and pagan ideas, which he freely admits. Therefore, you're going to get gnostic elements and ideas in the work. But, it's not being promoted as an exercise on Catholic principles or metaphysical truths. It is there purely for entertainment.

    I would imagine that most Catholics have enough God-given common sense to distinguish between a work of fiction ordered toward entertainment versus outright heresy ordered to challenge their Catholic faith. This is why I am skeptical about the borderline superstitious reaction some Trads have to works of fiction that incorporate these ideas.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #23 on: October 15, 2021, 07:55:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on October 15, 2021, 07:46:37 PM
    But, it's not being promoted as an exercise on Catholic principles or metaphysical truths. It is there purely for entertainment.

    Tolkien has been and is widely promoted as a traditional Catholic and his works as Catholic.

    The next best source says:

    Quote
    J. R. R. Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic from boyhood, and he described The Lord of the Rings in particular as a fundamentally religious and Catholic work.

    [...]

    The Bible and traditional Christian narrative also influenced The Silmarillion. The conflict between Melkor and Eru Ilúvatar parallels that between Satan and God.[5] Further, The Silmarillion tells of the creation and fall of the Elves, as Genesis tells of the creation and fall of Man.[6] As with all of Tolkien's works, The Silmarillion allows room for later Christian history, and one version of Tolkien's drafts even has Finrod, a character in The Silmarillion, speculating on the necessity of Eru Ilúvatar's eventual Incarnation to save Mankind.[T 3] A specifically Christian influence is the notion of the fall of man, which influenced the Ainulindalë, the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, and the fall of Númenor.[T 4]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Middle-earth


    And another source:

    Quote
    Jesuit Fr. James V. Schall; echoing the views of another Jesuit, Fr. Robert Murray, a friend of Tolkien, exclaimed: “I have never read anything quite so beautiful as the first page of The Silmarillion ... the prose was appropriately scriptural.” No, sorry, it is pure Gnostic!
    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-fantasy-writing-of-tolkien-was.html
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #24 on: October 15, 2021, 08:12:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 15, 2021, 02:36:10 PM
    Are the accusations of Gnosticism in Tolkien’s work limited to the Silmarillion?  I can’t recall picking up on those themes in LOTR or The Hobbit, but then I wasn’t really looking for them either.

    The true God created everything, and he saw that it was good. The dualistic God of Tolkien's myths fables creates a world which is partly good and partly evil (hence the name middle-earth!?) That's not limited to the Silmarillion. Owens mentions Sauron as an example of obvious evil creation. That's one of the heresies in "The Lord of the Rings".
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #25 on: October 15, 2021, 08:21:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on October 15, 2021, 08:12:17 PM
    The true God created everything, and he saw that it was good. The dualistic God of Tolkien's myths fables creates a world which is partly good and partly evil (hence the name middle-earth!?) That's not limited to the Silmarillion. Owens mentions Sauron as an example of obvious evil creation. That's one of the heresies in "The Lord of the Rings".

    I’d need to think about that for a while.

    Why do you think so many trads like Tolkien if his works are peppered with gnostic content (that’s an honest question, not a challenge)?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #26 on: October 15, 2021, 08:25:25 PM »
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    • I see “Kent” making some good arguments in favor of Tolkien here:

    https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=24969.0
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #27 on: October 15, 2021, 08:33:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 15, 2021, 08:21:09 PM
    I’d need to think about that for a while.

    Why do you think so many trads like Tolkien if his works are peppered with gnostic content (that’s an honest question, not a challenge)?


    I can only guess: Montini was an occultist. The Vatican Council was occultist. Neo-modernism is occultist, I'd call it magic or theurgy. I imagine that all this O.T.O., Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Hermeticism, Rosicrucianism, Alchemism, Kaballah, etc. pp. stuff was common and widespread all over the clerus and the whole hierarchy, well before the wretched Council. The Tavistock Institute of Human Relations was just one branch leading the youth astray. Another one was "the danger [...] present almost in the very veins and heart of the Church" (Pius X, Pascendi).
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #28 on: October 15, 2021, 08:37:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 15, 2021, 08:25:25 PM
    I see “Kent” making some good arguments in favor of Tolkien here:

    https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=24969.0


    Kent doesn't discuss whether Tolkien's works promote heresy.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Silmarillion
    « Reply #29 on: October 15, 2021, 08:48:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on October 15, 2021, 08:37:27 PM

    Kent doesn't discuss whether Tolkien's works promote heresy.

    Hmm...true.
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