Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Art and Literature for Catholics => Topic started by: SoldierOfChrist on November 20, 2013, 12:21:49 AM
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I've recently discovered a hotly contested item of literature called "the poem of the man-God". It was written by Maria Valtorta between 1943 and 1951. She claimed that she received apparitions from Christ and the Blessed Mother, and that Christ dictated his life to her. Her confessor was convinced of the truth of her apparitions, and when he was reassigned, her next spiritual director became convinced of them as well. Three priests swear they were in a meeting with Pope Pius XII, and that he gave a verbal imprimatur to publish the book as it was. Under John XXIII, it was put on the index. Anyone have anything to say about this one? I am very intrigued to hear what practicing traditional Catholics think about this work. I have not read it.
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Three priests swear they were in a meeting with Pope Pius XII, and that he gave a verbal imprimatur to publish the book as it was.
This is often repeated, but there's no such thing as "verbal imprimatur" so that in itself is very suspicious.
I haven't read it either, but if you want to know what is necessary for you to know of the details of the Life of Jesus Christ, read and meditate the Holy Bible. There's more than enough there to keep you going for a lifetime.
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It was placed on the index of forbidden books and remained there until the index was abolished. I forget which under which Pope it was placed on the index and for what reasons.
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The reason for my interest was that someone posted an excerpt from it on another site. I started researching it because I thought that I would go back and tell that person not to follow false apparitions, but what I found was different than expected. Here is a site which gives a fleshed out history of the apparitions and the work. history (http://www.maria-valtorta.net/) It was put on the index under John XXIII. I do realize that the Holy Bible contains all that we need to know about the life of Jesus, but would you allow one book to be removed from the Holy Bible? And if this apparition is true, and Our Lord actually wants us to have this as well, then I find it difficult to ignore. Not saying that's what I believe. I would just like to start a conversation about the topic.
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I appreciate your responses Nadir and Matto.
Anonymous down-voter, you have the IQ of a squid. Your argumentation style is equivalent to the following:
Person 1: Hey, what are your thoughts on ...?
You: Blah, garble garble, blah blah.
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I appreciate your responses Nadir and Matto.
Anonymous down-voter, you have the IQ of a squid. Your argumentation style is equivalent to the following:
Person 1: Hey, what are your thoughts on ...?
You: Blah, garble garble, blah blah.
Oh yes, and the spine of a squid too, for failing to unmask yourself and say something.
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I have also been told that this book is on the Index of Forbidden Books. On the other hand, Bishop Williamson wrote at least a couple of his newsletters promoting the Poem of the Man-God. Bishop Williamson seemed to think it a good book, but he is the only person I have ever heard give it a positive review, at least the only person I would ever consider as having a worth-while opinion.
Having said that, I have never read it, nor do I intend to read it. I'm having problems just getting through the many books I already have and, frankly, even Bishop Williamson's positive reviews didn't strike me as making the book seem worth the time.
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I haven't read it. If it was on the Index, I'm not going to chance it, there are so many good books with an imprimatur that I may read without danger. For those reasons, I'm not comfortable with encouraging others to read or discuss it either.
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I do realize that the Holy Bible contains all that we need to know about the life of Jesus, but would you allow one book to be removed from the Holy Bible?
Soldier, What does that mean?
What are you implying here?
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The Holy Office scotched it for substantial reason. It is heretical. Period.
It contains absurd passages including one in which the Mother of God is "reported to have told St. Ann" that She, the Blessed Virgin Herself, "wished She could 'sin' - just once - so that She, too, "could experience God's forgiveness."
Characterizations of Our Lord that look like excerpts from a tawdry piece of pulp fiction churned out in a paperback sweatshop demean and mislead readers are also found in this damnable work.
And, from personal observation, people who read this crap get hooked, just like Medjugoogoos do with their endless, bogus "messages". In fact, it is a cult thing within that very cult. I lost a couple of friends years back that had wandered into both cults and became irrational "thrill seekers" as a consequence.
I won't comment on the +W remarks because when he said those things it was argued extensively and for some time on another Trad forum that he wrote his "recommendation" in an ironic voice. It did not seem so to me nor to others but I would very like to retain a warm fondness for his literary and Catholic sense, so I made allowances.
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Soldier ,I don't know who down-thumbed you, but I'm thinking that they were trying to tell you that they disliked the poem. There's a lot to read on this forum, & sometimes even I will down-thumb something to show that I disagree or don't like something & move on to the next discussion. I'll also up-thumb to show agreement & move on too. We only have so much time to read everything we want to read so don't be offended.
I'm a trad from way back before Vat II so have a mindset of a trad. I can tell you this. About 10 -15 years ago someone recommended that poem. I'd never heard of it so I got a copy from somewhere & only read the first page or so & I remember feeling disgusted & couldn't believe that any intelligent person would recommend it. I never finished it, thank heavens, because I later found out that it was on the Index of Forbidden Books. I'm telling you to stay away from it. Please don't allow this to make you curious now to read it. It really isn't worth your time. To be blunt - it's rather stupid.
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Soldier ,I don't know who down-thumbed you, but I'm thinking that they were trying to tell you that they disliked the poem. There's a lot to read on this forum, & sometimes even I will down-thumb something to show that I disagree or don't like something & move on to the next discussion. I'll also up-thumb to show agreement & move on too. We only have so much time to read everything we want to read so don't be offended.
I'm a trad from way back before Vat II so have a mindset of a trad. I can tell you this. About 10 -15 years ago someone recommended that poem. I'd never heard of it so I got a copy from somewhere & only read the first page or so & I remember feeling disgusted & couldn't believe that any intelligent person would recommend it. I never finished it, thank heavens, because I later found out that it was on the Index of Forbidden Books. I'm telling you to stay away from it. Please don't allow this to make you curious now to read it. It really isn't worth your time. To be blunt - it's rather stupid.
Thanks for your thought Thorn. I don't think that I'll read it. I was really just looking for some info. I personally think that it's pretty mean-spirited and malicious to just down-thumb somebody because they ask a question. I stand by my implication that this person was a stupid coward. But I appreciate everyone else's input. Thank you.
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I do realize that the Holy Bible contains all that we need to know about the life of Jesus, but would you allow one book to be removed from the Holy Bible?
Soldier, What does that mean?
What are you implying here?
This doesn't imply anything. I am speaking in plain English. Just forget about it. I'm sure that everyone has better things to argue about, like whether NFP is or is not heretical. I really look forward to my next information-seeking exchange with this group!
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I am pleased and relieved to hear that.
By the way, if you complain about thumbsdown some people like to downthumb you for complaining about it. Just completely ignore the thumbsdown and you'll be happier on board. It doesn't mean much at all, about you or about the person who did it.
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I don't care about my reputation being slaughtered by dumb cowards. I am not complaining. I am staring these people in the eye and telling them straight up what they are. They need to hear it. These are the same types who wrote letters to Father Rostrand instead of manning up and confronting Matthew personally, so I figure that I am in the same lot as the moderator!
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I won't comment on the +W remarks because when he said those things it was argued extensively and for some time on another Trad forum that he wrote his "recommendation" in an ironic voice. It did not seem so to me nor to others but I would very like to retain a warm fondness for his literary and Catholic sense, so I made allowances.
Given what you wrote about the book, I am more baffled at Bishop Williamson's praise of the book than I ever was. I never read any argument about his recommendation being in an "ironic voice", but I will say that I did not sense any irony. I remember reading the recommendations and, in fact, I just did an internet search and found some of his commentaries in full. He most definitely recommends reading "selected" chapters of the book to your children though he does not specify precisely what chapters should be (or should not) be read. Frankly, re-reading a couple of his commentaries on the Poem today, given just the one passage you wrote about, I am even more mystified about his enthusiastic reviews than before.
It just doesn't make any sense.
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May I suggest some safe and edifying books as an alternative to Maria Valtorta's visions?
by Fr. Henry James Coleridge:
1)The Preparation of the Incarnation. 1885
https://archive.org/details/preparationincar00merruoft
2)The nine Months: The Life of Our Lord in the Womb
http://www.archive.org/stream/theninemonths00coleuoft#page/n5/mode/2up
3) the Public Life of Our Lord Jesus Christ
You may find reprints of this by Kessinger Publishing or Nabu Press through Amazon.
A prolific author, Father Coleridge wrote in an historical, theological and mystical manner.
Another suggested author is Archbishop Alban Goodier. He penned a two volume The Public Life of Our Lord Jesus Christ and The Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ. These books do not seem to be archived on the Internet yet but used copies are available from Preserving Christian Publications, Abe and Alibris books at times. Archbishop Goodier compared all the Gospels texts chronologically and then wrote a prose account of each moment. The Archbishop visited Palestine before there were many changes to that locale and walked in Our Lord's footsteps. These are the kind of books that you can revisit often as they add to our understanding of the liturgical year and the great love Our Lord had for His friends, which we all hope to be.
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I echo the sentiments of those who have expressed concern over the fact that it was on the index.
Another huge red flag to me about this tripe (I call it that because that's what it is), was my "ecuмenical" grandmother's endorsement. She watched EWTN 24/7, and told people from my family not to attend my wedding because it "wasn't catholic," yet, was open arms with my cousin who was married in the seventh day adventist "church."
If she endorsed such a thing, and it was on the index, that's two huge solid reasons why I won't even get near the thing with a ten foot pole.
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Read the Mystical City of God (http://www.themostholyrosary.com/mystical-city.htm) by Venerable Mary of Agreda, instead of the Poem of the Man-God. You can also get a good deal on the hard copy if you look in the right places. I bought the brand new 4 volume hardcover books for less than $65 shipped to my door.
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Do NOT read that filth! It's the Catholic version of 50 Shades of Grey.
If you have the stomach or need proof of its demonic evils, read this review. (http://www.traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/A_042_Valtorta.htm)
I wouldn't recommend reading the book or the review. The satanic and perverted rubbish in that book may deeply disturb you. It's that bad. Its name should not even be spoken of.
In terms of books dealing with mystical visions, I'd recommend The Life of Christ by Anne Emmerich. You can get it for $65. http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Christ-Biblical-Revelations-Volumes/dp/0895557916/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1385095717&sr=8-3&keywords=anne+emmerich
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Do NOT read that filth! It's the Catholic version of 50 Shades of Grey.
If you have the stomach or need proof of its demonic evils, read this review. (http://www.traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/A_042_Valtorta.htm)
I wouldn't recommend reading the book or the review. The satanic and perverted rubbish in that book may deeply disturb you. It's that bad. Its name should not even be spoken of.
In terms of books dealing with mystical visions, I'd recommend The Life of Christ by Anne Emmerich. You can get it for $65. http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Christ-Biblical-Revelations-Volumes/dp/0895557916/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1385095717&sr=8-3&keywords=anne+emmerich
Wow! That review really does bring your point home. I have to agree with you. It sounds as though Valtorta was tricked by the evil one. I think that you see this a lot with apparitions. They can gain great popularity and fame, but when you look at the orthodoxy of what was said in the apparitions or at the fruits of what came from them, so many of them appear to have been tricks of the devil. I stick with Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes. This one from Valtorta is obviously one of the other ones.
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Do we not see the pattern of replacing the Holy, true and edifying with the evil, deceptive and artificial? The Serpent attempts the following:
replace Mystical City of God with Poem of the Man-God;
replace Holy Rosary with "Divine Mercy" chaplet;
replace the Catholic Faith with a counterfeit church created at Vat II;
replace the Catholic Tridentine Mass with a sacrilegious, protestant, novus ordo mass;
replace Christ's Divine Sacrifice with the "h0Ɩ0cαųst";
replace Our Lady of La Salette / Fatima / Lourdes with Medjugorje;
And near the end, replace Christ with the anti-Christ.
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.... I forgot to mention the attempt to replace the true Bible with a fake bible created by protestants who omitted 7 original Books (deuterocanonicals); and within the Church, replace the true Bible with a water-downed, mistranslated modern bible. Two important passages, among others, that were changed in great error are "the continual Sacrifice", which was replaced by "burnt offerings" in an effort to deceive Catholics into thinking Rome will not be corrupted at the top and take away the Divine Sacrifice of the Mass. "Burnt offerings" is an erroneous translation because those "sacrifices" were already made null when the old law was fulfilled by the New Law. The New Law contains the Holy Mass, therefore, in the end times, which is prophesied to have the continual Sacrifice taken away, the Newchurch attempts to confuse people with the words "burnt offerings", something that does not even apply to the Church today, nor in the future.
Also, in many modern "catholic" bibles, our Blessed Mother's words, "My soul doth magnify the Lord" is replaced by, "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord". This is wrong. The word "proclaims" is NOT the same as "magnify". Even demons in hell proclaim the greatness of Christ, for they shiver in fear at the mention of Him, and they are forced to admit His greatness; but their souls are the antithesis of magnifying the Lord. What does a magnifier do? When viewing an object through a magnifying glass, the object is made more clear and brought to the observer in a bigger way. This was the case with Blessed Mary's soul, which was full of grace. When people saw her, they could see God living through her far more than anybody else, because her soul was so holy by God's grace, which she freely chose to accept. Looking into Mary's soul was like viewing the holiness of our Lord. It is no wonder she was the Living Arc of the New Covenant.
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Do we not see the pattern of replacing the Holy, true and edifying with the evil, deceptive and artificial? The Serpent attempts the following:
replace Mystical City of God with Poem of the Man-God;
replace Holy Rosary with "Divine Mercy" chaplet;
replace the Catholic Faith with a counterfeit church created at Vat II;
replace the Catholic Tridentine Mass with a sacrilegious, protestant, novus ordo mass;
replace Christ's Divine Sacrifice with the "h0Ɩ0cαųst";
replace Our Lady of La Salette / Fatima / Lourdes with Medjugorje;
And near the end, replace Christ with the anti-Christ.
There was a guy (priest) who claims to have had a typical near-death experience this year, it was on FB, and I won't even link it because he started with the "fatal" accident he had on "DM Sunday". Just even sounding out the phrase sounds like "da** Sunday" to me. I will no longer even talk to people who do that during Easter. But I caught the first part of this guy's trip to Hell on FB (before he met with "Jesus" and the Holy Mother: 100% poorly-executed Dante without the poetry, and 6 rings instead of 9. (I'm sure a hole at the bottom of Hell leading right into Heaven; I didn't want to know). I have nothing good to say from here on out. I'll just say I'm in complete agreement with you, and we should watch out for these things.
Frank himself passed out rosaries last week that had the bent up cruicifix :O and I'm not sure what kind of other beads but what gets me is that he told people to use these rosaries for the DM chaplet!
You know it's bad when you visit a "catholic site", and they've got some verse up there that almost sounds familiar, and then you see KJV 1611. ??? What is that? Another V2-ism where the Vulgate is out of fashion? I won't speak to that guy because his mom was (imo) a great martyr, but really, neo-cats use the KJV?
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NOVUS ORDO MODE ACTIVATED[/u]
Sacred Heart of Jesus? Ewww who likes hearts with thorns in them! What do you mean they're my sins? All my temporal punishments for sin were removed on Divine Mercy Sunday! And the Divine Mercy image doesn't have any icky scars or hearts on it. It's sooOOooo clean and plain! Like my Novus Ordo parish! :rahrah:
The Rosary? Ewww that takes sooOOOooo long! The Rosary is the boringist! I much prefer the Divine Mercy Chaplet because it takes only 5 minutes tops!
Whenever I'm an Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist (which is every week) I like to meditate on the Diary of Sister Faustina, especially when she receives communion on the hand. It must have been tasty! :popcorn:
What's the Gospel? You must mean Gospa! I can't wait to go to Medj and pray for your conversion. Nobody goes to hell, except radical ultra-orthodox traditionalists. St. John Paul The Great and Pope St. Francis entrust us!
Why am I surrounded by toxic traditionalists? Why is there an emoticon of my priest on this board? :clown: