Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Art and Literature for Catholics => Topic started by: Simeon on June 04, 2023, 01:58:50 PM
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https://ia800506.us.archive.org/35/items/ApocalypseOfStJohnACommentary/ApocalypseOfStJohnACommentary.pdf
Has anyone read this book? It has the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat.
Any opinions on it?
I just found it doing a search for Catholic commentaries on the Apocalypse.
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Don't know about this one, but the one by Father Sylvester Berry is great! Let up know what you find out.
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Don't know about this one, but the one by Father Sylvester Berry is great! Let up know what you find out.
Thanks for that recommendation, Cera. I have the book but haven't read it.
In my recent searches, I found this series posted on the TIA website. Have you seen it? It's very interesting.
https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/g010_Judg-1.htm
A while back we had a discussion on Kramer's Book of Destiny. Decem was prolific on that thread, and I think you may have commented. I cannot remember, though, what position you took.
In any case, TIA takes a very strong stand in favor of us not being in the end Times, but in the Latter Days, a wonderful distinction - and an opinion to which I wholeheartedly subscribe.
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TIA takes a very strong stand in favor of us not being in the end Times, but in the Latter Days, a wonderful distinction - and an opinion to which I wholeheartedly subscribe.
This distinction between these days and the end of time is not original to TIA. The same understanding is in Father Berry's 1921 book called The Apocalypse of St. John. He calls our time the time of the Antichrist, which is not the end times.
In the 1600s, Venerable Bartholomew Holzhauser put forward the Seven Ages of the Church, which makes the same distinction. The work of Holzhauser is explained here by Bishop Williamson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXhHBC21j1A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfHhGsF2T8M
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Great stuff, Cera. I'm a student, and appreciate all resources. I remember listening to BpW's conferences years ago, and enjoyed them very much. As Ratton says in his preface, and I paraphrase, the more time goes on, the more the Apocalypse becomes understandable. It must now be read in light of Vatican II, Fatima inclusive, and one needs good sources to guide thinking. Where does VII fit into the Apocalypse? We have an earth shattering event and no one to teach us authoritatively - part of the chastisement, I'm sure.
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Many of these Chastisement prophecies are false.
This is a very well docuмented video debunking the Three Days, Great Monarch and more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkbKwWyDyZg
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Many of these Chastisement prophecies are false.
This is a very well docuмented video debunking the Three Days, Great Monarch and more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkbKwWyDyZg
I've seen you post this video in many other threads.
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I've seen you post this video in many other threads.
Actually, I've never posted it before today.
I posted another series of videos on the topic.
Have you watched it?
It's extremely detailed and well docuмented.
We shouldn't spread lies or false prophecies so people should really do the research.
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Actually, I've never posted it before today.
I posted another series of videos on the topic.
Have you watched it?
It's extremely detailed and well docuмented.
We shouldn't spread lies or false prophecies so people should really do the research.
No I have not watched it, nor shall I.
Have you not more than once, on other threads, revealed that you do not read very well because of your health, and so post things that you yourself have not thoroughly read?
And if you do not thoroughly read what you post, then are you not amply capable of "spreading lies or false prophecies?" How can you know exactly what you are disseminating?
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No I have not watched it, nor shall I.
Have you not more than once, on other threads, revealed that you do not read very well because of your health, and so post things that you yourself have not thoroughly read?
And if you do not thoroughly read what you post, then are you not amply capable of "spreading lies or false prophecies?" How can you know exactly what you are disseminating?
The video narrates the evidence from the many books that are being discussed (It's three hours long) which is super helpful for somebody like me.
Why would you want to believe in lies or spread them, Simeon?
Why not look at the evidence and then come to your conclusion?
Why focus on me and my health rather than look at the evidence and discuss that?
Why not dispute the evidence. I've asked many people to dispute it because I'd like to hear both sides argued to help me with my discernment.
I've asked for help with disputing it because I only want to share it if it is true and somebody shows me that it is not true then will gladly stop sharing it and post retractions warning others of that fact.
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O Miser, thou art a gaslighter. J'comprends. Au revoir.
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I love Apocalypse, but cannot help but mention 2 Thess. 2:3 when St. Paul Says, "Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,"
Ne quis vos seducat ullo modo : quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum, et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis,
The Latin for "revolt" is discessio, di cedo, which seems to mean "to divide the house" and one rare interpretation, "A separation of married persons." I can't help but think of Vatican II which was really a separation between tradition and modernism. And according to one of my dictionaries Cicero used the word discessus to describe his banishment from Rome. Interestingly, Cicero was stabbed to death by his own student, Herennius; sort of like we Trads have been stabbed by the modernist Catholics. Cicero was murdered on Dec 7th, but as the story goes, on the day he was murdered a raven (symbol of death) hopped up on his bed and removed the sheet from his face, foretelling his death. This is my ramble of the day.
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O Miser, thou art a gaslighter. J'comprends. Au revoir.
I'd love to be set straight if somebody would please show me the evidence to contradict the information.
I only want to know the truth. Don't you?
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Many of these Chastisement prophecies are false.
This is a very well docuмented video debunking the Three Days, Great Monarch and more:
Don't conflate the Great Chastisement with the Three Days of Darkess. They are entirely different.
The Great Monarch is another separate issue, and for several decades I've remained unconvinced.
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The general history of the Christian church from her birth to her final triumphant state in heaven : chiefly deduced from the Apocalypse of St. John, the Apostle and Evangelist
by Walmesley, C. (Charles), 1722-1797
This work also tries to divide up our last 2000 years into the 7 ages/vials/seals/triumphets.
https://archive.org/details/generalhistory00walm/mode/2up
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Don't conflate the Great Chastisement with the Three Days of Darkess. They are entirely different.
The Great Monarch is another separate issue, and for several decades I've remained unconvinced.
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We have two threads on this so I'll post this again here.
It appears that the Great Chastisement, Three Days, and Great Monarch are all intertwined in some sources.
This is what I posted in the other thread:
The video shows at this timestamp (57:11) that Dupont does actually discuss AMT and explains that the Great Monarch doesn't make sense
because he is going to convert the world after the Three Days of Darkness
wipes out all the non-Catholics.
Who will he convert?
https://youtu.be/QkbKwWyDyZg?t=3431 (https://youtu.be/QkbKwWyDyZg?t=3431)
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I love Apocalypse, but cannot help but mention 2 Thess. 2:3 when St. Paul Says, "Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,"
Ne quis vos seducat ullo modo : quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum, et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis,
The Latin for "revolt" is discessio, di cedo, which seems to mean "to divide the house" and one rare interpretation, "A separation of married persons." I can't help but think of Vatican II which was really a separation between tradition and modernism. And according to one of my dictionaries Cicero used the word discessus to describe his banishment from Rome. Interestingly, Cicero was stabbed to death by his own student, Herennius; sort of like we Trads have been stabbed by the modernist Catholics. Cicero was murdered on Dec 7th, but as the story goes, on the day he was murdered a raven (symbol of death) hopped up on his bed and removed the sheet from his face, foretelling his death. This is my ramble of the day.
Good Morning, OB!
Worse, Vatican II has divided the house of the faithful. We've been scattered to the four winds. We love the Faith, would die for it, and yet we cannot agree with each other on practically anything. We love God and we fight with each other. It's quite perverse, really. This division I long blamed on trad clerics - and they do play their part in spades. But ultimately the hand of the Lord hath done this. We are chastised for our sins - and we are being sifted.
I find it interesting that Dr. Droleskey focused on the divisions among the faithful Catholics in his consideration of the import of Sr. Wilhelmina. I too went straight for that problem in my own thinking, and concluded that whatever SrW is, she is not the healing balm that will reunite the scattered faithful. Her thus far incorruption lacks the agency power to bind up the bleeding wound. Therefore to my mind the manifestation must mean something else; and I cannot help but go immediately to the possibility that "the times are a changin'."
I read the sign of the incorrupt habit as a Divine reminder that the Church is indefectible; and the sign of the incorrupt body as a Divine reminder that the Faith, which seems to have been dead and buried, is very much alive in many souls, across all the lines of division. I am looking with great interest at the possibility that we are nearing the end of the 5th age, and perhaps, are close to a Divine intervention of some kind. Please God!
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I love Apocalypse, but cannot help but mention 2 Thess. 2:3 when St. Paul Says, "Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,"
Ne quis vos seducat ullo modo : quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum, et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis,
The Latin for "revolt" is discessio, di cedo, which seems to mean "to divide the house" and one rare interpretation, "A separation of married persons." I can't help but think of Vatican II which was really a separation between tradition and modernism. And according to one of my dictionaries Cicero used the word discessus to describe his banishment from Rome. Interestingly, Cicero was stabbed to death by his own student, Herennius; sort of like we Trads have been stabbed by the modernist Catholics. Cicero was murdered on Dec 7th, but as the story goes, on the day he was murdered a raven (symbol of death) hopped up on his bed and removed the sheet from his face, foretelling his death. This is my ramble of the day.
Yes, OB, I think many Trads would agree that this post-V2 Conciliar Church phenomenon is the Great Apostasy, the schismatic discessio revolt spoken of in 2 Thessalonians by St. Paul.
St. Paul speaks of this as a sign that Christ's coming is to follow. It is Christ's Second Coming that destroys this Apostasy. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. This is the divine revelation of Scripture, which cannot be contradicted.
Where between this revolt, schism, discessio and Christ's return do you see a Great Monarch, a great era of peace and prosperity in a renewed Church? It ain't in St. Paul's timeline, and it ain't anywhere in God's revelation in Scripture.
There is the 1,000 reign since the cross, when Christ bound Satan, and when the Church spreads the Gospel and saves the "called" ones, the elect, and then there's the revolt, the schism, the discessio, and then Christ's return.
Other forecasts of some different Millennial reign are, in my view, akin to "Jєωιѕн fables" and "traditions of men" contrary to Scripture.
This appears to be a minority view around here, but it needs to be expressed, and I'll keep doing so.
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Yes, OB, I think many Trads would agree that this post-V2 Conciliar Church phenomenon is the Great Apostasy, the schismatic discessio revolt spoken of in 2 Thessalonians by St. Paul.
St. Paul speaks of this as a sign that Christ's coming is to follow. It is Christ's Second Coming that destroys this Apostasy. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. This is the divine revelation of Scripture, which cannot be contradicted.
Where between this revolt, schism, discessio and Christ's return do you see a Great Monarch, a great era of peace and prosperity in a renewed Church? It ain't in St. Paul's timeline, and it ain't anywhere in God's revelation in Scripture.
There is the 1,000 reign since the cross, when Christ bound Satan, and when the Church spreads the Gospel and saves the "called" ones, the elect, and then there's the revolt, the schism, the discessio, and then Christ's return.
Other forecasts of some different Millennial reign are, in my view, akin to "Jєωιѕн fables" and "traditions of men" contrary to Scripture.
This appears to be a minority view around here, but it needs to be expressed, and I'll keep doing so.
Yesh it doesn't make sense to me. This apostasy will be fixed then we will have another worse one later? I don't see it. Considering what cassini wrote in the other thread about heliocentrism being infallibly condemned, I don't think it's good to put our trust in princes, in this case private revelation.
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This apostasy will be fixed then we will have another worse one later? I don't see it.
In the grand scheme of things, our current apostasy only involves about 1/3 of mankind (and that's if you include protestants). If not, then catholics only make up 1/8 of the population. It is a catholic apostasy but not a worldwide apostasy.
The future before antichrist is described by the Church Fathers as
1) the entire world (i.e. every govt on earth) is catholic (which has yet to happen)
2) being ruled by the 3rd and final Holy Roman Empire (we've only had 2 thus far...which also implies a Catholic Emperor)
3) the antichrist comes onto the scene and tempts most of the world (which is the "great falling away")
Also, the antichrist is defeated by Christ Himself (not Our Lady). Thus, Our Lady's Immaculate Heart triumph must happen earlier (i.e. before antichrist).
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I interrupt this broadcast in order to insert a question:
I presume the "Decem, et. al. position" accepts the Church's judgment that the Book of the Apocalypse is part of the Canon of Scripture.
What passages of the Apocalypse pertain to Vatican II?
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In the grand scheme of things, our current apostasy only involves about 1/3 of mankind (and that's if you include protestants). If not, then catholics only make up 1/8 of the population. It is a catholic apostasy but not a worldwide apostasy.
The future before antichrist is described by the Church Fathers as
1) the entire world (i.e. every govt on earth) is catholic (which has yet to happen)
2) being ruled by the 3rd and final Holy Roman Empire (we've only had 2 thus far...which also implies a Catholic Emperor)
3) the antichrist comes onto the scene and tempts most of the world (which is the "great falling away")
Also, the antichrist is defeated by Christ Himself (not Our Lady). Thus, Our Lady's Immaculate Heart triumph must happen earlier (i.e. before antichrist).
Apparently Catholics make up about 17% of the population. So nearly 1/5. Though most do not have the faith or live a Catholic life.
Also any sources for you claim on the entire world needing to be Catholic or a final Holy Roman Empire. This is news to me.
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I interrupt this broadcast in order to insert a question:
I presume the "Decem, et. al. position" accepts the Church's judgment that the Book of the Apocalypse is part of the Canon of Scripture.
What passages of the Apocalypse pertain to Vatican II?
There are probably many if one were to sit down and go through it, though the Great Apostasy would more properly be referred to as the whole so-called Conciliar period. I believe this is clearly referenced in Chapter 20 of the Apocalypse. It is the period when Satan, who was "bound" during the 1,000 years of the Gospel's spread throughout the nations, is "loosed."
Scripture is consistent in its terminology. I think all of us would agree that Scripture mentions a Great Apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2 which St. Paul relates to as a sign before the end; this would have to be mentioned in the Apocalypse if, as in fact it does, it refers to the end times.
In 2 Th 2, there is a reference to a "withholding," and then a "taking out of the way." 2 Th 2:6-7. This is different metaphorical language for the "binding" and "loosing" of Apocalypse 20. Of course, this "binding/loosing" metaphor is specifically used in reference to Peter and the Apostles in the Gospel of Matthew, to which the binding/loosing reference in Apoc. 20 is related. At some point, the proclamation of the Gospel (which the pope, bishops and hence the Church do during Satan's "binding") will effectively end in the Church, or what appears to be the Church (false prophets who have usurped the seat of its authority), and this is the period of "loosing" of Satan. Both 2 Th. 2 and Apocalypse 20 also refer to this period of the loosing or no withholding as involving a "seduction" (by Satan and his "army") of the nations that were formerly proselytized with the Gospel during the "binding"- 2 Th 2:10, Apoc. 20:7. St. Paul refers to this time also as the antichrist or "man of lawlessness or sin" sitting in the Temple (2 Th 2:4), whereas Apoc. 20 refers to it as an "encompassing of the camp of the saints, and the beloved city." Apoc. 20:8. Both St. Paul and St. John have this "revolt" or "apostasy," and its leaders, destroyed by the return of Our Lord in "brightness" or with "fire." 2 Th 2:8, Apoc. 20:9.
In Isaiah 22:5 the metaphor is one of a "peg" that is "removed." As I said, Scripture is consistent in its tenor, though the vehicle or metaphors used for the expression vary.
So, I would say that the clearest presentation and exposition of the Conciliar apostasy is expressed in Apoc. 20.
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There are probably many if one were to sit down and go through it, though the Great Apostasy would more properly be referred to as the whole so-called Conciliar period. I believe this is clearly referenced in Chapter 20 of the Apocalypse. It is the period when Satan, who was "bound" during the 1,000 years of the Gospel's spread throughout the nations, is "loosed."
Scripture is consistent in its terminology. I think all of us would agree that Scripture mentions a Great Apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2 which St. Paul relates to as a sign before the end; this would have to be mentioned in the Apocalypse if, as in fact it does, it refers to the end times.
In 2 Th 2, there is a reference to a "withholding," and then a "taking out of the way." 2 Th 2:6-7. This is different metaphorical language for the "binding" and "loosing" of Apocalypse 20. Of course, this "binding/loosing" metaphor is specifically used in reference to Peter and the Apostles in the Gospel of Matthew, to which the binding/loosing reference in Apoc. 20 is related. At some point, the proclamation of the Gospel (which the pope, bishops and hence the Church do during Satan's "binding") will effectively end in the Church, or what appears to be the Church (false prophets who have usurped the seat of its authority), and this is the period of "loosing" of Satan. Both 2 Th. 2 and Apocalypse 20 also refer to this period of the loosing or no withholding as involving a "seduction" (by Satan and his "army") of the nations that were formerly proselytized with the Gospel during the "binding"- 2 Th 2:10, Apoc. 20:7. St. Paul refers to this time also as the antichrist or "man of lawlessness or sin" sitting in the Temple (2 Th 2:4), whereas Apoc. 20 refers to it as an "encompassing of the camp of the saints, and the beloved city." Apoc. 20:8. Both St. Paul and St. John have this "revolt" or "apostasy," and its leaders, destroyed by the return of Our Lord in "brightness" or with "fire." 2 Th 2:8, Apoc. 20:9.
In Isaiah 22:5 the metaphor is one of a "peg" that is "removed." As I said, Scripture is consistent in its tenor, though the vehicle or metaphors used for the expression vary.
So, I would say that the clearest presentation and exposition of the Conciliar apostasy is expressed in Apoc. 20.
Thank you, Decem, for your reply. You are always a gentleman with me, and it is greatly appreciated.
I think you are correct, that there are many prophecies and visions in the Apocalypse that can be applied to Vatican II. I thank you for narrowing things down to Chapter 20, and also for the insights you’ve provided.
Now, I am troubled by the tone and tenor of the forum threads that involve these issues. Clearly we are speaking about matters that pertain to the future, and possibly even contingent or conditional future events. No one knows the future. The events that shall come to pass are not the subject matter of infallible declarations. Yet there is an almost bitter zeal in many posts, even in this thread. People striving against one another, pushing their own predictions of what is going to happen in the future. People getting upset – or so it seems – because they cannot convince others that the future will go down as they hold it will go down.
No matter how many quotes one amasses, and no matter how pristine the sources, we are in the realm of opinion and speculation. In my reading of Ratton thus far, it is clear that Saints, Doctors, churchmen and divines have come to manifold and various opinions about the meaning of the Apocalypse. There are different schools on any number of questions. Nor has the Church ruled on them.
Why then is this a debate? Why a battle? Why a contest? Why more division? Why? Why? Why? In matters of opinion, discussion, yes. But striving in matters of opinion, especially matters pertaining to future events known only to the Mind of God, is against both charity and wisdom. It's unseemly.
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Also any sources for you claim on the entire world needing to be Catholic
St Caesar of Arles, France (6th cent), Father of the Church, according to Jurgen's "Faith of the Early Fathers". Presided over the 2nd Council of Orange in 529 AD against Pelagianism.
"When the entire world, and in a special way France - especially the provinces of the north, the east, and above all that of Lorraine and Champagne - shall have been laid waste by the greatest miseries and trials, then the provinces shall be comforted by a prince who had been exiled in his youth, and who shall recover the crown of the lilies. This prince shall extend his dominion over the total universe.
At the same time, by the will of God, a most holy man shall receive the Papacy, who will be most perfect in every spiritual perfection. This Pope will have with him the great Monarch, the most virtuous man, who shall be an eminent leader of the holy line of French Kings. This great Monarch shall assist the Pope in the reformation of the whole earth. Many nations and their princes that are living in error and impiety shall be converted and an admirable peace shall reign among men during many years, because the wrath of God shall be appeased through their repentence, penance and good works. There will be one common law, only one faith, one baptism, one religion.
All nations shall recognize the Holy See of Rome, and shall pay homage to the Pope. But after an extended period of time, fervor will cool, inquity will abound and moral corruption shall become worse than ever before, which shall bring upon mankind the last and worst persecution of anti-christ and the end of the world."
St Epheaem (5th cent):
"Then the Lord from his glorious heaven shall set up His peace. And the kingdom of the Romans [Roman Empire] shall rise in place of this latter people, and establish its dominion upon the earth, even to its ends, and there shall be no one who will resist it.
After iniquity shall have multiplied, and all creatures have become defiled, then Divine Justice shall appear, and shall wholly destroy the people, and coming forth from perdition, the man of iniquity [anti-christ] shall be revealed upon the earth, the Seducer of men, and the distruber of the whole earth."
Rabanus Maurus (9th cent), the most thorough chronicler of both prophecy and Oral Tradition in Western Europe. He was abbot of the famous Benedictine Monastery in Fulda. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "His fame as a teacher spread all over Europe. He was the most learned man of his age. In scripture and patristic knowledge, he had no equal and was thoroughly conversant in canon law and liturgy."
"Our principle Doctors [teachers of the Faith] agree in telling us, that towards the end of time one of the descendents of the kings of France shall reign over all the Roman Empire; and that he shall be the greatest of the French Monarchs and the last of his race. After having governed well his kingdom, he shall go to Jerusalem and lay down his scepter and crown at Mt Olivet. This shall be the conclusion of the Roman and Christian Empire."
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St Anslem (11th cent), Doctor of the Church
"Certian Doctors [esteemed teachers of the Faith] truly say, that one of the kings of the Frankish Empire shall possess it in its entirety, which King shall live in the last time and shall be the greatest and last of kings. Who after he shall have happily governed his Kingdom, shall come to Jerusalem and lay down his scepter and crown on Mt Olivet. He shall be the last and consummate Emperor of the Roman and Christian Empire.
And immediately thereupon [after he lays down his scepter/crown], according to the sentence of Paul, they [esteemed teachers of the Faith] say antichrist will come."
St Hildegard (12th cent)
...There are so many prophecies from St Hildegard that you can look them up yourself.
William D'Otrante (13th cent), an abbot of a monastery in Southern Italy
"The Great Monarch and the great pope will preceed anti-christ. The nations will be at war for 4 years and a great part of the world will be destroyed. The pope will go over the sea carrying the sign of Redemption on his forehead. The Great Monarch will come to restore peace and the Pope will share the victory. Peace will reign on earth."
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John of Vatiguerro (13th cent)
"Spoilation, pillaging and devastation of that most famous city which is the capital and mistress of France [Paris] will take place when the Church and the world are grievously troubled. The Pope will change his residence and the Church will not be defended for 25 months or more, because during all that time, there will be no Pope in Rome, no emperor and no ruler in France. But, after this, a young captive Prince shall recover the Crown of the Lilies and shall extend his dominion all over the world."
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St Vicent Ferrer (14th cent), known as the "Angel of Judgement" spoken of in the Apocalypse.
"Armies from the East, West and North will fight together in Italy and the Eagle [Great Monarch] shall capture the false king, and all things shall be made obedient unto him, and there shall be a new reformation in the world."
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Thank you, Decem, for your reply. You are always a gentleman with me, and it is greatly appreciated.
I think you are correct, that there are many prophecies and visions in the Apocalypse that can be applied to Vatican II. I thank you for narrowing things down to Chapter 20, and also for the insights you’ve provided.
Now, I am troubled by the tone and tenor of the forum threads that involve these issues. Clearly we are speaking about matters that pertain to the future, and possibly even contingent or conditional future events. No one knows the future. The events that shall come to pass are not the subject matter of infallible declarations. Yet there is an almost bitter zeal in many posts, even in this thread. People striving against one another, pushing their own predictions of what is going to happen in the future. People getting upset – or so it seems – because they cannot convince others that the future will go down as they hold it will go down.
No matter how many quotes one amasses, and no matter how pristine the sources, we are in the realm of opinion and speculation. In my reading of Ratton thus far, it is clear that Saints, Doctors, churchmen and divines have come to manifold and various opinions about the meaning of the Apocalypse. There are different schools on any number of questions. Nor has the Church ruled on them.
Why then is this a debate? Why a battle? Why a contest? Why more division? Why? Why? Why? In matters of opinion, discussion, yes. But striving in matters of opinion, especially matters pertaining to future events known only to the Mind of God, is against both charity and wisdom. It's unseemly.
Hi, Simeon. This isn't so bad: the Dominicans and the Jesuits during the de auxiliis controversy really would make this look like child's play. I haven't called anyone a heretic, or been called a heretic - just been asked, "are you Catholic?" Just some good, passionate argument.
We're talking about truth, and truth involving revelation. God's truth. It's not a trivial matter.
And my argument with Pax begins with: are the quotes genuine? I can't seem to get sources out of him. Very suspicious. I could quote St. Anselm without identifying his writing which is quoted. I wouldn't expect anyone to buy that, and I won't.
If you look at Dupont's work, and the other main written source, by Fr. Gerard Cullerton - which Dupont lifted much of his stuff from - the same thing goes on: quotes without attributions to the work quoted. I remember getting into this here about a quote attributed to one of the popes by either Dupont or Cullerton, Pius X or IX . . . one of the Piuses - not sure if that's a word, lol. Anyway, it couldn't be sourced, either.
As I said, very suspicious.
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And my argument with Pax begins with: are the quotes genuine? I can't seem to get sources out of him. Very suspicious.
The sources are websites i've visited in the past, which quoted from books. I don't remember the sites nor the books. I copied these quotes long ago. But it's all out on the web...
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We have two threads on this so I'll post this again here.
It appears that the Great Chastisement, Three Days, and Great Monarch are all intertwined in some sources.
This is what I posted in the other thread:
The video shows at this timestamp (57:11) that Dupont does actually discuss AMT and explains that the Great Monarch doesn't make sense
because he is going to convert the world after the Three Days of Darkness
wipes out all the non-Catholics.
Who will he convert?
https://youtu.be/QkbKwWyDyZg?t=3431 (https://youtu.be/QkbKwWyDyZg?t=3431)
Miser, I went to the link you posted and what I found astonished me.
It's a discussion about a FICTIONAL book mocking the Catholic Church and exploiting Church prophecies about the Three Days Darkness.
The narrator who is discussing the FICTIONAL book explains that the TDD is actually aliens landing on earth.
In this context, he FALSELY claims that the Catholic prophecy says the TTD "wipes out all the Catholics" and then snarkily asks "Who will he (sic) convert?"
Of all of the Church sources for information on the TDD, absolutely NONE of them say all Catholics are wiped out. It is the enemies of the Church who are wiped out.
Miser, I know your heart is in the right place, but you might want to begin with trustworthy sources (which means not someone on YouTube). Had you started with any of the Blesseds who have discussed the TDD, you would have known this person on the video is way, way off base. He does not know what Catholic prophecy of numerous Blesseds and others have clearly said.
Also anyone who relies on a FICTIONAL source to make his point is not to be trusted.
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Hi, Simeon. This isn't so bad: the Dominicans and the Jesuits during the de auxiliis controversy really would make this look like child's play. I haven't called anyone a heretic, or been called a heretic - just been asked, "are you Catholic?" Just some good, passionate argument.
We're talking about truth, and truth involving revelation. God's truth. It's not a trivial matter.
And my argument with Pax begins with: are the quotes genuine? I can't seem to get sources out of him. Very suspicious. I could quote St. Anselm without identifying his writing which is quoted. I wouldn't expect anyone to buy that, and I won't.
If you look at Dupont's work, and the other main written source, by Fr. Gerard Cullerton - which Dupont lifted much of his stuff from - the same thing goes on: quotes without attributions to the work quoted. I remember getting into this here about a quote attributed to one of the popes by either Dupont or Cullerton, Pius X or IX . . . one of the Piuses - not sure if that's a word, lol. Anyway, it couldn't be sourced, either.
As I said, very suspicious.
Okay, Decem, I shall take your word for it that this is mild. And I'm sure it is. It's still too much for my nerves, though. As you were...;)
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Miser, I went to the link you posted and what I found astonished me.
It's a discussion about a FICTIONAL book mocking the Catholic Church and exploiting Church prophecies about the Three Days Darkness.
The narrator who is discussing the FICTIONAL book explains that the TDD is actually aliens landing on earth.
In this context, he FALSELY claims that the Catholic prophecy says the TTD "wipes out all the Catholics" and then snarkily asks "Who will he (sic) convert?"
Of all of the Church sources for information on the TDD, absolutely NONE of them say all Catholics are wiped out. It is the enemies of the Church who are wiped out.
Miser, I know your heart is in the right place, but you might want to begin with trustworthy sources (which means not someone on YouTube). Had you started with any of the Blesseds who have discussed the TDD, you would have known this person on the video is way, way off base. He does not know what Catholic prophecy of numerous Blesseds and others have clearly said.
Also anyone who relies on a FICTIONAL source to make his point is not to be trusted.
I want to say, "You can't make this stuff up," but .........
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/d380b4bef4eb9e2266a37d4270e5233b/tumblr_op9re70mxJ1w2koado1_400.gif)
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The sources are websites i've visited in the past, which quoted from books. I don't remember the sites nor the books. I copied these quotes long ago. But it's all out on the web...
Then you're in no position to be an advocate. Why do you promote what you can't give evidence for? How well did you check out the books you copied this from? Or the websites?
Was it Dupont's work? Culleton's? They are both available on the internet. Why don't you see if you can jog your memory?
Culleton - https://archive.org/details/TheProphetsAndOurTimes/page/n1/mode/2up
Dupont - https://ia904706.us.archive.org/26/items/CatholicProphecy/CatholicProphecy.pdf
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Miser, I went to the link you posted and what I found astonished me.
It's a discussion about a FICTIONAL book mocking the Catholic Church and exploiting Church prophecies about the Three Days Darkness.
The narrator who is discussing the FICTIONAL book explains that the TDD is actually aliens landing on earth.
In this context, he FALSELY claims that the Catholic prophecy says the TTD "wipes out all the Catholics" and then snarkily asks "Who will he (sic) convert?"
Of all of the Church sources for information on the TDD, absolutely NONE of them say all Catholics are wiped out. It is the enemies of the Church who are wiped out.
Miser, I know your heart is in the right place, but you might want to begin with trustworthy sources (which means not someone on YouTube). Had you started with any of the Blesseds who have discussed the TDD, you would have known this person on the video is way, way off base. He does not know what Catholic prophecy of numerous Blesseds and others have clearly said.
Also anyone who relies on a FICTIONAL source to make his point is not to be trusted.
Hmm...that's strange, because I just clicked on the link and it shows Dupont quoting Blessed Anna-Maria Taigi:
(https://i.imgur.com/KSzs1Dp.jpg)
He says that there is a problem with the plot because the Three Days will wipe out non Catholics and then the Great Monarch comes and annihilates the heretics.
Also a minute or two before that he shows:
(https://i.imgur.com/plX9Stu.jpg)
With the same plot issue.
He later discusses how the themes of the Great Monarch and TDD also sometimes appear in works of fiction. This is interesting because they are being put into the minds of non-Catholics as well.
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Why do you promote what you can't give evidence for?
It’s on google. Don’t be lazy.
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Yes, OB, I think many Trads would agree that this post-V2 Conciliar Church phenomenon is the Great Apostasy, the schismatic discessio revolt spoken of in 2 Thessalonians by St. Paul.
St. Paul speaks of this as a sign that Christ's coming is to follow. It is Christ's Second Coming that destroys this Apostasy. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. This is the divine revelation of Scripture, which cannot be contradicted.
Where between this revolt, schism, discessio and Christ's return do you see a Great Monarch, a great era of peace and prosperity in a renewed Church? It ain't in St. Paul's timeline, and it ain't anywhere in God's revelation in Scripture.
There is the 1,000 reign since the cross, when Christ bound Satan, and when the Church spreads the Gospel and saves the "called" ones, the elect, and then there's the revolt, the schism, the discessio, and then Christ's return.
Other forecasts of some different Millennial reign are, in my view, akin to "Jєωιѕн fables" and "traditions of men" contrary to Scripture.
This appears to be a minority view around here, but it needs to be expressed, and I'll keep doing so.
When you think how ALL of the bishops and cardinals and the pope himself declared at Vatican II
that Allah is Jesus' Father....
thereby apostatizing from the Catholic Faith
as antichrists (denying Christ)
well, what else would you call it but the Great Apostasy.
Then you consider how this makes the False Concilliar Church
Noahide compliant...
Noahide laws are the official laws of the United Nations.
Those who are not compliant will be beheaded, like it says in the Book of Revelation.
People can learn more about them at this thread starting here and read to the end:
https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/we-are-in-the-weimar-stage/msg887229/#msg887229
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It’s on google. Don’t be lazy.
Since it appears you’re either unwilling to defend your own position, or, more likely, don’t do so because the position can’t be defended with legitimate, verifiable quotes from the Fathers, I’ll consider this discussion done.
It’s as I thought.
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Thank you, Decem, for your reply. You are always a gentleman with me, and it is greatly appreciated.
I think you are correct, that there are many prophecies and visions in the Apocalypse that can be applied to Vatican II. I thank you for narrowing things down to Chapter 20, and also for the insights you’ve provided.
Now, I am troubled by the tone and tenor of the forum threads that involve these issues. Clearly we are speaking about matters that pertain to the future, and possibly even contingent or conditional future events. No one knows the future. The events that shall come to pass are not the subject matter of infallible declarations. Yet there is an almost bitter zeal in many posts, even in this thread. People striving against one another, pushing their own predictions of what is going to happen in the future. People getting upset – or so it seems – because they cannot convince others that the future will go down as they hold it will go down.
No matter how many quotes one amasses, and no matter how pristine the sources, we are in the realm of opinion and speculation. In my reading of Ratton thus far, it is clear that Saints, Doctors, churchmen and divines have come to manifold and various opinions about the meaning of the Apocalypse. There are different schools on any number of questions. Nor has the Church ruled on them.
Why then is this a debate? Why a battle? Why a contest? Why more division? Why? Why? Why? In matters of opinion, discussion, yes. But striving in matters of opinion, especially matters pertaining to future events known only to the Mind of God, is against both charity and wisdom. It's unseemly.
I've run out of thumbs for you, Simeon so here
(https://i.imgur.com/cTAsskk.png)
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Since it appears you’re either unwilling to defend your own position,
:jester:
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:jester:
Very good. That about sums up the quality of your engagement..
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Hmm...that's strange, because I just clicked on the link and it shows Dupont quoting Blessed Anna-Maria Taigi:
Listen to the whole video and you will hear this unreliable sourse cite fiction.
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Listen to the whole video and you will hear this unreliable sourse cite fiction.
Cera, did you read my post?
He later discusses how the themes of the Great Monarch and TDD also sometimes appear in works of fiction. This is interesting because they are being put into the minds of non-Catholics as well.