Author Topic: Question about Harry Potter? (Read 5179 times)

gobosox91 · « **on:** June 15, 2013, 08:37:18 PM »

I'm just curious to see what the general Catholic opinion on J. K. Rowling's popular saga. I understand that very fanatic people will call it satanic and evil, as they say it promotes witchcraft.
First off, I only liked Harry Potter from 1999-2003 and just gave up on it, because they were making the movies while the books were still being written and it took forever for book 5 to come out, and in that time I came to love J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle Earth. I love The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit.

But why do Christians endorse J. R. R. Tolkien's works, which he wrote as Christian (particularly Catholic) allegories, as well as C. S. Lewis' Narnia series, but believe Harry Potter comes from the depths of hell? I was always aware that true witchcraft was bad and that the only true faith was Christianity, particularly Catholicism. I never met anybody who was inspired to dabble in satanism and the occult because they read Harry Potter? This magic they speak of is fiction, and real magic is to be condemned. As long as they know the difference...? How can we endorse certain fantasy stories by people like Tolkien and Lewis, but we condemn J. K. Rowling as being inspired by the devil?

Anthony Benedict · « **Reply #1 on:** June 15, 2013, 08:48:02 PM »

I'm not going to do your homework for you.

However, if you do a little search work for comments by ACTUALLY practicing witches about what HP contains, that should close the matter.

Even Pope Benedict told Catholics NOT to read that crap.

TheKnightVigilant · « **Reply #2 on:** June 15, 2013, 08:49:33 PM »

One important distinction is that the Harry Potter books are utter garbage, while the Lord of the Rings saga has something to it. Besides of that, the Potter books are completely mired in Occultic themes and the glorification of such.

Many people are inspired to dabble in the occult as a result of Harry Potter and similar stories. My younger sister loved the books and films as a child, along with similar stories like The Worst Witch, and by the age of 10 had an unhealthy interest in Ouija boards, tarot cards, casting magic circles and other such things.

Pheo · « **Reply #3 on:** June 15, 2013, 08:53:22 PM »

I used to have some of the same questions, but the fantasy elements do differ quite a bit in their basic construction.

In the Harry Potter series, magic is an inherent quality of some of the characters. It's there for them to manipulate to their own liking and the only laws that bind them are issued by the government (the "Ministry of Magic" in this case). It really strikes me as a sort of secular subgenre of fantasy.

It's the exact opposite in the LoTR series, especially if you read the back story in The Silmarillion. It's made quite clear the source of all the powers in Middle Earth is God (Eru) - even Gandalf is an agent of Eru who is sent into Middle Earth during its ultimate struggle against evil, Sauron being a servant of a sort of fallen angel called Melkor.

On top of that, ex-Wiccans have said that Rowling incorporated lots of Wiccan elements into the stories. I forget which details, but the info is out there and it doesn't sound great from a Catholic perspective. I read the Harry Potter series as it was coming out, but knowing what I know now...I wouldn't bother picking it up again.

Nadir · « **Reply #4 on:** June 15, 2013, 10:24:11 PM »

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I understand that very fanatic people will call it satanic and evil

Can you name one of these very fanatic people?

Rosarium · « **Reply #5 on:** June 15, 2013, 11:46:47 PM »

Quote from: gobosox91

I'm just curious to see what the general Catholic opinion on J. K. Rowling's popular saga. I understand that very fanatic people will call it satanic and evil, as they say it promotes witchcraft.
First off, I only liked Harry Potter from 1999-2003 and just gave up on it, because they were making the movies while the books were still being written and it took forever for book 5 to come out, and in that time I came to love J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle Earth. I love The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit.

I wrote this blog post on the subject in general:
http://blog.nonpeccabis.com/2010/09/witchcraft-and-fantasy.html

Quote

But why do Christians endorse J. R. R. Tolkien's works, which he wrote as Christian (particularly Catholic) allegories, as well as C. S. Lewis' Narnia series, but believe Harry Potter comes from the depths of hell? I was always aware that true witchcraft was bad and that the only true faith was Christianity, particularly Catholicism.

Christianity does not endorse any particular works of fiction.

Rather than defend one work of fiction, I would say that any source of entertainment and material pleasure which is a stumblingblock to virtue or the faith should be avoided completely. If it is a scandal in itself, or because of the individual, it should be avoided regardless.

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I never met anybody who was inspired to dabble in satanism and the occult because they read Harry Potter? This magic they speak of is fiction, and real magic is to be condemned. As long as they know the difference...? How can we endorse certain fantasy stories by people like Tolkien and Lewis, but we condemn J. K. Rowling as being inspired by the devil?

Discernment is more than a clumsy consistency and simple categorization.

Moral issues in this sort of decision are:

* What are the effects of reading/enjoying the particular work?
* What kind of principles does the work advance sympathetically?
* What are the intentions of the author?

And probably others, but those stand out.

And for fantasy, remember, not everyone is in agreement. Tolkien was not happy with Lewis, because Tolkien thought that if one is going to create a fictional universal, it should not be connected to reality for theological reasons.

And of course, hypocrites exist, so you should not always look to others for general trends. The issue is not that one or the other sort of work is good or bad, or that both must be judged the same, but that one should not make excuses for sin, and completely avoid reading (or watching, listening to, etc) anything which can dangerous to the Faith.

Rosarium · « **Reply #6 on:** June 15, 2013, 11:58:01 PM »

Quote from: gobosox91

I understand that very fanatic people will call it satanic and evil, as they say it promotes witchcraft.

Be careful about calling other fanatics. It often reveals a continuum of views and a tendency to moral relativity.

If what is appropriate is merely the most comfortable level for oneself, and anything less or more is wrong, we will be led astray.

Some people do condemn things with an in-depth examination, and that is not entirely reasonable, however, it is not a bad way to judge unnecessary things in this world. The risk of error in judgement is not equal.

If one condemns a work for being spiritually dangerous, and avoids it, because one suspects it is dangerous, and it was not in fact dangerous, one has lost nothing.

However, if one endorses a work, and it turns out to be spiritually dangerous, one is exposed to real danger.

There is no reason to support J. K. Rowling and her works, and there may be reason to avoid them merely because of her personal views and morality (which will be reflected in her writings), and her works have caused alarm for some people and are avoided.

That is not "fanatical". That is faithful and prudent. Avoiding works which are dangerous to the faith is an obligation we have and failing to meet that obligation is a sin.

Rosarium · « **Reply #7 on:** June 16, 2013, 12:06:22 AM »

Quote from: Rosarium

Some people do condemn things with an in-depth examination, and that is not entirely reasonable, however, it is not a bad way to judge unnecessary things in this world. The risk of error in judgement is not equal.

I meant:

Quote from: Rosarium

Some people do condemn things without an in-depth examination, and that is not entirely reasonable, however, it is not a bad way to judge unnecessary things in this world. The risk of error in judgement is not equal.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #8 on:** June 16, 2013, 01:10:32 AM »

The author is typical of anti-family UK women, and her goal is to corrupt the minds of the young:

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Rowling attacked the Blair government's policy on single parent families. She said that Labour could do "a good deal more" and then donated £500,000 to the One Parent Families charity to set an example.[68] Rowling said that Brown's measures for children 'would have made a real difference to my family's life' when she was poor.[69] Blair stepped down shortly before the release of Rowling's seventh book, and Brown was appointed Prime Minister. Rowling subsequently donated £1 million to the Labour party during the 2010 general election which Labour lost.[70]

PatrickG · « **Reply #9 on:** June 16, 2013, 03:44:42 AM »

I am a fanatic on those grounds; and it is simply wrong to compare JRR and JK R.

i) As Pheo said, the 'witches' and 'wizards' in Tolkien's works are powers - actually called the Ainur, Valar and Maiar (Gandalf, Saruman the traitor and Radagast are three lesser Maiar). They're rather like the angels - Powers, Thrones, Dominions, Archangels, Angels and so on - being created by Eru (God). His villains are really the fallen angels - Melkor or Morgoth (the greatest of the Ainur and so analogous to the Devil) refused to be subject to Eru and corrupted many of the Powers to his cause - Sauron is a corrupted power, the Balrogs are corrupted lesser powers and so on. It really is a thoroughly Catholic fiction in its morals, about the weakness and treason of Man in serving evil powers and the desire for power corrupting.

ii) A proper definition of 'magic' is using the power of a demon - a fallen angel - to perform something that could normally only be performed by God. It's an alliance between men and devils to wreak something that God would not permit to be wrought - it's always blasphemous, always evil and invariably ends in damnation. Harry Potter is true magic - men uttering incantations and doing all manner of things with demonic help. Her curses have a ring of reality about them, too much for me. Religion is an exercise of the 'muggles', the ignorant mass who have not the power to grasp this occult knowledge. The whole thing stinks like a week-old fish.

Very simply, Gandalf is an analogy to an angel. The 'power' in Middle Earth comes from God. Harry Potter's characters, 'good' (their isn't a good character among them) and ill, are summoning demons. There is no God in Harry Potter, only exercises of demonic power. He would be in any Christian book a dangerous villain bound for Hell, not a Hero.

Tolkien was a devout Catholic before the Council, Rowling's a rank atheist. Steer well clear of Potter.
The Remnant.
http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2011-0725-harry-potter-girard.htm

Boots · « **Reply #10 on:** June 16, 2013, 05:56:48 AM »

I don't recall there ever being a case of a character in the Potter books even hinting that they are getting their power from any other being. I thought it was implied that the power just was, like the 'force' in the Star Wars stories. I thought of the magical abilities being controlled by the wizards as a system more akin to a science, which is why they have to learn to control their abilities.

Harry Potter is an annoying character & certainly not a suitable role-model. He was an abused orphan brought up without God, in a godless, materialistic home. He makes a lot of mistakes that ends up costing lives. The books are sometimes like a Greek tragedy, but not as elegant.
Rowling isn't particularly original. I've read all the books & seen all the movies. I wouldn't let a child read the books & adults will find the story pales in comparison to The Lord of the Rings. I also think the Narnia story is the poor distant cousin of Tolkien's work.

I guess most of you are correct in admonishing people not to read the books, or at least not give the books to children who haven't yet had a firm foundation in the Faith. I don't think not reading Potter is any great loss, but I wont say the books were uninteresting/unentertaining.

There are interesting parts in the books. The Order of the Phoenix reminds me of what happened with Vatican 2, where we were no longer taught how to defend ourselves, spiritually, & were deliberately weakened. In the OOP, the children at the school are told they don't need to practice defensive spells because nobody was ever going to attack them, etc. The Order of the Phoenix is like the oldSSPX.

Tiffany · « **Reply #11 on:** June 16, 2013, 07:50:39 AM »

Mama who doesn't allow HP fanatic here! :soapbox:

Rosarium · « **Reply #12 on:** June 16, 2013, 07:58:48 AM »

Quote from: Boots

I don't recall there ever being a case of a character in the Potter books even hinting that they are getting their power from any other being. I thought it was implied that the power just was, like the 'force' in the Star Wars stories. I thought of the magical abilities being controlled by the wizards as a system more akin to a science, which is why they have to learn to control their abilities.

That is not a factor. If you read my blog post (which it looks like you have, because you seem to be referencing it, if not, I apologize), you'll see that the nature of the power/magic is not a factor in discussing "magic" in fantasy.

The reception of power from other beings is the cause of "real" magic, ie, the only way a person could receive such power in reality if at all.

So, magic in fiction is generally the results of demonic activity, but portrayed in a way which excludes demons. Is this kind of thinking healthy for the mind, to think of receiving something which can only be received through demons?

The Force in Star Wars, traditionally speaking, is a result of more Eastern religious thinking. Forgetting the Extended Universe, the Force is a facet of that fictional universe, but inspired directly by religious thinking.

Quote

There are interesting parts in the books. The Order of the Phoenix reminds me of what happened with Vatican 2, where we were no longer taught how to defend ourselves, spiritually, & were deliberately weakened. In the OOP, the children at the school are told they don't need to practice defensive spells because nobody was ever going to attack them, etc. The Order of the Phoenix is like the oldSSPX.

Other, better, works of fantasy have the same theme. It is common.

Ethelred · « **Reply #13 on:** June 16, 2013, 09:22:09 AM »

Quote from: PatrickG

Rowling's a rank atheist.

I'm sure she's much more: a true satanist. I never use this word in an inconsiderate sense, but in its original sense.

Some of you here knew personally the traditional Catholic Fr. Gregor Hesse from Austria who died a few years ago. One good Cathinfo user even has as avatar a picture of Fr. Hesse... :-)
Anyway, Fr. Hesse studied theology in a Roman faculty, and his minor subject was demonology. Also he was a friend of the old SSPX and the German voice in many audio translations of Archbishop Lefebvre's texts. He was an independent priest, and despite his excentric sides he was an authority in theology in the entire German language area and a master in cutting up the Vatican II docuмents (for example, he used to say that the true author of the Vatican II docuмents was the devil himself).

I'm mentioning this so verbally for the readers who never heard of him, to show that he was no Hanswurst (buffoon).

During a table talk he was asked about Rowling and her Potter stories, and he said (quoted from memory) :
Not only her "magic spells" in the books are demonic. By taking a closer look at them I can even tell you exactly which pact with the devil Rowling signed.

I don't think Fr. Hesse ever mentioned which pact Rowling signed with the devil. Because on a similar occasion he said that he regretted to have studied demonology, because since he did, the devil attacked him much more intensively. (The father added something like: the more internals you would know about the devil, the angrier he would get at you. I've no idea if exorcists would agree with this statement, but Fr. Hesse said so and maybe it's a valid statement for non-exorcists.)

By the way, Rowling told publicly in an interview, that the entire Potter story "suddenly" was in her head within a second, whilst she drove bus or whatever. So indeed the Potter story is a true afflatus -- just no divine one.

Tiffany · « **Reply #14 on:** June 16, 2013, 09:28:40 AM »

For those who are OK with HP, aren't you fearful of witchcraft and sorcery? I didn't even know the author was a woman until this thread, just the cover alone was enough to know to avoid it. I admire how you all can analyze what the author is up to.