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Author Topic: New Years and LOTR on 4 K  (Read 8874 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2022, 02:42:39 PM »
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    How can an object/subject - the movies-, which has shown itself to be deficient in itself, provide a greater completion of the tale than the tale itself?

    Good point.  It depends how you define "complete".  Did the books tell 100% of the story, compared to the movies?  Yes, obviously.  But...in some areas...the books were written more like a history book than a novel.  There is character development/understanding that is missing in the books.  Some parts read like:  "This happened.  Then this happened.  Then person x did this."  Tolkien explained the motivations of the characters only at a high-level, but not in any great detail.

    From the point of view of human drama and the personality of the CHARACTERS, the movies were better, but only because of the way Tolkien wrote.  Story-wise, the books were better, obviously. 
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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #46 on: January 26, 2022, 03:45:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 26, 2022, 02:42:39 PM
    Good point.  It depends how you define "complete".  Did the books tell 100% of the story, compared to the movies?  Yes, obviously.  But...in some areas...the books were written more like a history book than a novel.  There is character development/understanding that is missing in the books.  Some parts read like:  "This happened.  Then this happened.  Then person x did this."  Tolkien explained the motivations of the characters only at a high-level, but not in any great detail.

    From the point of view of human drama and the personality of the CHARACTERS, the movies were better, but only because of the way Tolkien wrote.  Story-wise, the books were better, obviously.
    Interesting points, to whit I must stroke my growing beard and ponder upon.
    If I may ask, have you listened to the BBC dramatization? Would it interest you to do so? It would be another aspect to charitably discuss.:cowboy:
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #47 on: January 26, 2022, 03:49:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 26, 2022, 02:42:39 PM
    Good point.  It depends how you define "complete".  Did the books tell 100% of the story, compared to the movies?  Yes, obviously.  But...in some areas...the books were written more like a history book than a novel.  There is character development/understanding that is missing in the books.  Some parts read like:  "This happened.  Then this happened.  Then person x did this."  Tolkien explained the motivations of the characters only at a high-level, but not in any great detail.

    From the point of view of human drama and the personality of the CHARACTERS, the movies were better, but only because of the way Tolkien wrote.  Story-wise, the books were better, obviously.
    I'd say the Silmarillion definitely fits the idea of a "historical text", but I don't see how that applies to the Hobbit and LOTR themselves. They quite clearly present themselves as novels, complete with emotion and dialogue which would be foreign to a fictional historical text. I would honestly chock up that to the style of Tolkien rather than an intent on his part to portray these as "histories".

    Quote from: Kazimierz on January 26, 2022, 01:01:27 PM
    Scratching my Thomistic head on this one. :cowboy:

    How can an object/subject - the movies-, which has shown itself to be deficient in itself, provide a greater completion of the tale than the tale itself?
    Adding or removing anything from the original text diminishes the essence of the Writer's created work. The text of LOTR, and subsequently all other texts written by Tolkien, ARE in esse THE Tale in its fullness, to whit the movies cannot add to the essence/being of The Tale; only mar or obfuscate.

    A copy of the Jackson films should be placed on an Index, for historical purposes. Burn the rest!!!!!!!! :laugh1::laugh1::laugh1: :jester: :jester: :jester:
    And for Jackson himself......:fryingpan: :fryingpan: :fryingpan: (hee hee)

    I'm interested to hear why you loathe Jackson's adaptations, Kaz? :confused:
    I know Christopher Tolkien hated them because they were action movies rather than an adventure, which I very much agree with. Is this what you disdain about them?
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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #48 on: January 26, 2022, 03:58:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on January 26, 2022, 03:49:41 PM
    I'd say the Silmarillion definitely fits the idea of a "historical text", but I don't see how that applies to the Hobbit and LOTR themselves. They quite clearly present themselves as novels, complete with emotion and dialogue which would be foreign to a fictional historical text. I would honestly chock up that to the style of Tolkien rather than an intent on his part to portray these as "histories".

    I'm interested to hear why you loathe Jackson's adaptations, Kaz? :confused:
    I know Christopher Tolkien hated them because they were action movies rather than an adventure, which I very much agree with. Is this what you disdain about them?
    There were omissions and other changes in the movies - Arwen. At the heart of the matter, we quote Tolkien himself:

    "
    Quote
    “The canons of narrative an in any medium cannot be wholly different ; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.”

    "

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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #49 on: January 26, 2022, 04:35:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Kazimierz on January 26, 2022, 03:58:35 PM
    There were omissions and other changes in the movies - Arwen. At the heart of the matter, we quote Tolkien himself:

    "
    I can't argue with that. Arwen was definitely intrusive in the films in order to justify a romance subplot. But, at least she wasn't completely fabricated like Tauriel for The Hobbit "trilogy". :laugh1:
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    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #50 on: January 26, 2022, 04:49:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on January 26, 2022, 04:35:29 PM
    I can't argue with that. Arwen was definitely intrusive in the films in order to justify a romance subplot. But, at least she wasn't completely fabricated like Tauriel for The Hobbit "trilogy". LOTR:laugh1:
    Yikes and yeesh.

    Now imagine trying to turn LOTR and The Hobbit into musicals......

    Saruman sings "That Old Black Magic"

    Gandalf "I've been through Rohan on a horse with white mane, Shadowfax and his speed is insane"
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #51 on: January 26, 2022, 05:34:44 PM »
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    If I may ask, have you listened to the BBC dramatization? Would it interest you to do so?
    Are you talking about an audio dramatization of LOTR (i.e. an audio book)?  I heard some of these were made in the 70s/80s but never listened to them.  I would listen if you have links.
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    Online Emile

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #52 on: January 26, 2022, 05:52:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Kazimierz on January 26, 2022, 04:49:58 PM
    Yikes and yeesh.

    Now imagine trying to turn LOTR and The Hobbit into musicals......

    Saruman sings "That Old Black Magic"

    Gandalf "I've been through Rohan on a horse with white mane, Shadowfax and his speed is insane"
     "That Old Black Magic", Funny! :laugh1::laugh1:

    But sadly "Now imagine trying to turn LOTR and The Hobbit into musicals......" has been done:

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    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #53 on: January 26, 2022, 06:06:14 PM »
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    • These audio dramatizations by Phil Dragash are pure gold.  I wasn’t really familiar with LoTR and Tolkien when the movies came out.  I just thought they were exiting, well-done movies at the time, and never learned more about the books or Tolkien.  Years later, a Catholic friend introduced me to the brilliance, richness, and depth of Tolkien and LoTR through the course of several conversations.  These audio dramatizations were my first “reading” of LoTR.  I’ve since read the Silmarillion for myself, and the Hobbit, FoTR, TT, and most of RoTK out-loud to my children.  We’re about 100 pages from finishing RoTK.  We watch the movies after finishing each book (Except the Hobbit.  I didn’t want to start off with the bad wine.)
     
     
    https://archive.org/details/the-hobbit-bluefax
     
    https://archive.org/details/the-fellowship-of-the-ring_soundscape-by-phil-dragash
     
    https://archive.org/details/the-two-towers_soundscape-by-phil-dragash
     
    https://archive.org/details/the-return-of-the-king_soundscape-by-phil-dragash


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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #54 on: January 26, 2022, 09:56:15 PM »
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    • I will say it is an utter travesty that Tom Bombadil was completely cut by Peter Jackson. :facepalm:

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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #55 on: January 27, 2022, 05:18:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: bilbobaggins on January 18, 2022, 03:55:33 PM
    I think one's opinion on the movies is directly related to salvation. I am certain time will be spent in purgatory for any who deny the movies the greatest ever made. :popcorn:
    I know next to nothing about LOTR, book or movie. In fact I only entered this thread to discover what lotr means. Is there hope for me?
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #56 on: January 27, 2022, 08:27:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on January 27, 2022, 05:18:51 AM
    I know next to nothing about LOTR, book or movie. In fact I only entered this thread to discover what lotr means. Is there hope for me?
    There's always hope ;)

    Start with reading the Hobbit
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

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    Offline Romulus

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #57 on: January 27, 2022, 08:40:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on January 26, 2022, 09:56:15 PM
    I will say it is an utter travesty that Tom Bombadil was completely cut by Peter Jackson. :facepalm:


    Jackson said he had to ditch poor Tom because of the runtime, according to him, Bombadil didn't add to the main plot and he didn't want to drag the Fellowship out any further than he had to. He does have a point but cutting Tom probably wasn't the best choice.


    P.S : The combined length of all 3 movies are 11 hours and 22 minutes.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #58 on: January 27, 2022, 08:42:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Romulus on January 27, 2022, 08:40:17 AM
    Jackson said he had to but poor tom because of the runtime, according to him, Bombadil didn't add to the main plot and he didn't want to drag the Fellowship out any further than he had to. He does have a point but cutting Tom probably wasn't the best choice.


    P.S : The combined length of all 3 movies are 11 hours and 22 minutes.
    Cutting out one of the most jolly and carefree Tolkien characters? Some fan. A 20 minute scene would've probably been fine, especially since he felt the need to "flesh out" the Hobbit "trilogy" with a bunch of nonsense that isn't even in Tolkien (Tauriel, white orc, etc). The things of Tom he integrated into Treebeard would've sufficed in their proper place. But, I digress.
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Romulus

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    Re: New Years and LOTR on 4 K
    « Reply #59 on: January 27, 2022, 08:55:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on January 27, 2022, 08:42:38 AM
    Cutting out one of the most jolly and carefree Tolkien characters? Some fan. A 20 minute scene would've probably been fine, especially since he felt the need to "flesh out" the Hobbit "trilogy" with a bunch of nonsense that isn't even in Tolkien (Tauriel, white orc, etc). The things of Tom he integrated into Treebeard would've sufficed in their proper place. But, I digress.
    I'm not defending what he did, all I'm saying is that there were reasons behind the cutting. I love Tom as much as everyone else who read the books.
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