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Author Topic: Mel Gibson/Resurrection  (Read 4085 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2022, 07:31:57 PM »
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  • If the Christ Child encountered no difficulties (I realize no one has said that, but if He was incapable of even tripping, it certainly raises the question) what exactly did the Blessed Mother *do* to raise Him? Is she as the perfect Mother purely theoretical? Because it is sounding an awful lot like she never had to comfort Him, never had to assist Him, never had to do any of the things that constitute actually being a good mother.
    I thought Christ was fully man and fully God.  I thought the Church taught that He was like us in everything but sin.  Therefore how wouldnt He be capable of tripping?  
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #31 on: April 01, 2022, 08:00:07 PM »
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  • I thought Christ was fully man and fully God.  I thought the Church taught that He was like us in everything but sin.  Therefore how wouldnt He be capable of tripping? 
    .
    Gladius and Ladislaus argued that he could not fall out of inattentiveness or clumsiness because He had perfect control over His body. 
    .
    I am not so sure. I think Our Lord underwent the same development all human children underwent, and that includes motor skill coordination. There are probably some differences in His development given His divine nature, but I do not think this is one of them. I imagine He was capable of tripping as a toddler. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #32 on: April 01, 2022, 08:04:24 PM »
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  • I thought Christ was fully man and fully God.  I thought the Church taught that He was like us in everything but sin.  Therefore how wouldnt He be capable of tripping? 
    This is my understanding. It is part of His life of sorrow on earth to experience the same limitations and pains as regular men. The idea that He wouldn't suffer common things such as tripping dehumanizes Him, in a way.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #33 on: April 01, 2022, 08:32:39 PM »
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  • Who said that Our Lord would have encountered "no difficulties" or wouldn't have been "fully human"?  What we're saying is that He would not trip and fall out of mere clumsiness as depicted in the film, resulting from lack of control over His Body and / or being inattentive to where He was walking.  He spent His entire life in penance and subjected Himself to all manner of suffering, but of His own will.

    To attribute to Our Lord various frailties, however, that are the result of fallen nature is not to "fully humanize" Him by any stretch.  That's one step away from saying that He would not have been fully human had he not felt the tug of His lower nature working against His will during temptations, that if, say, He were to have seen a beautiful woman, that His lower nature was drawing Him to impurity as happens to fallen men.  We have to distinguish what is fully human in an unfallen human being (i.e. what is essentially human) and those things that are the product of Original Sin.  Since He did not labor under Original Sin, Our Lord's Body was under complete and absolute control of His will, an extension of his intellect and will, and was limited only with its innate capabilities.  So for instance, at some point His muscles gave way under the weight of the cross and could endure no more.  His heart gave out from His suffering on the Cross.  But that's differen than saying He could fall out of clumsiness and inattentiveness.  I agree completely with Gladius.  I had never give this much thought, but once he said it, it makes perfect sense.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #34 on: April 01, 2022, 08:52:40 PM »
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  • Okay, now I better understand what you mean and agree.

    Which returns me to my initial question:
    Perhaps such a fall would be preordained by God as a trial for Our Lady?
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called. [1 Tim. 6:20]


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #35 on: April 01, 2022, 09:10:06 PM »
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  • This is true except, in the end, the Jєωs die uglier. They have the deepest recesses of hell reserved for themselves because, despite being chosen by God, they rejected His Son and murdered Him.




    St. Alphonsus

    Sermons for All the Sundays in the Year

    SERMON XLVIII. NINETEENTH SUNDAY AFTER PENTECOST. - ON THE PAIN OF LOSS WHICH THE DAMNED SUFFER IN HELL.

    https://www.evangelizationstation.com/htm_html/Liturgy/Liguori%20sermons_for_all_the_sundays_in_t.htm



    Quote
    11.

    (. . .)

    The reprobate then shall hate and curse all the benefits which God has bestowed upon them. They shall hate the benefits of creation, redemption, and the sacraments. But they shall hate in a particular manner the sacrament of baptism, by which they have, on account of their sins, been made more guilty in the sight of God; the sacrament of penance, by which, if they wished, they could have so easily saved their souls; and, above all, the most holy sacrament of the altar, in which God had given himself entirely to them. They shall consequently hate all the other means which have been helps to their salvation. Hence, they shall hate and curse all the angels and saints. But they shall curse particularly their guardian angels their special advocates and, above all, the divine mother Mary. They shall curse the three divine persons the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; but particularly Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word, who suffered so much, and died for their salvation. They shall curse the wounds of Jesus Christ, the blood of Jesus Christ, and the death of Jesus Christ. Behold the end to which accursed sin leads the souls which Jesus Christ has dearly bought.



    Little Sermons on the Catechism by Cardinal Corsi

    Page 138 - 139

    https://archive.org/details/littlesermonsont00corsuoft/page/137/mode/2up



    Quote
    All these things which we have considered are well calculated to make comprehensible to us the priceless privilege of belonging to the Catholic Church, a blessing which we can never sufficiently appreciate, a grace which has been imparted to us by the mercy of God without any merit whatever on our part. He who has the misfortune of being born and taught in a false religion may turn to the true one, and many have done so. Yet it is extremely difficult to overcome the prejudices of training and education. Hence let us be most grateful to God for the precious gift of faith, and let us make use of it in the way He desires. Without this the blessing will be not only useless, but will merit for us greater punishment. What would it avail us, indeed, to be children of a holy Church if we were to lead lives in contradiction to her teachings?



    Mystical City of God, Volume III, by Venerable Mary of Agreda

    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/agreda/vol3/vol3.shtml



    Quote
    538.

    (. . .)

    Among the obscure caverns of the infernal prisons was a very large one, arranged for more horrible chastisements than the others, and which was still unoccupied; for the demons had been unable to cast any soul into it, although their cruelty had induced them to attempt it many times from the time of Cain unto that day. All hell had remained astonished at the failure of these attempts, being entirely ignorant of the mystery, until the arrival of the soul of Judas, which they readily succeeded in hurling and burying in this prison never before occupied by any of the damned. The secret of it was, that this cavern of greater torments and fiercer fires of hell, from the creation of the world, had been destined for those, who, after having received Baptism, would damn themselves by the neglect of the Sacraments, the doctrines, the Passion and Death of the Savior, and the intercession of his most holy Mother. As Judas had been the first one who had so signally participated in these blessings, and as he had so fearfully misused them, he was also the first to suffer the torments of this place, prepared for him and his imitators and followers.





    Quote
    751.

    (. . .)

    Then and there the infernal spirits resolved to persecute and torment more grievously the Catholics, and chastise more severely those who should deny or repudiate the Catholic faith. For they concluded that these merited greater punishment than the infidels, to whom it is not preached.




    St. Chrysostom

    Homily 20 on Hebrews

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240220.htm



    Quote
    9.

    (. . .)

    And what I just now said, that I repeat, that they shall suffer greater punishment, who, when they have enjoyed all good things, do not even so become better. For all shall not be punished alike; but they who, even after His benefits, have continued evil, shall suffer a greater punishment, while they who after poverty [have done this] not so. And that this is true, hear what He says to David, "Did I not give you all your master's goods?" 2 Samuel 12:8 Whenever then you see a young man that has received a paternal inheritance without labor and continues wicked, be assured that his punishment is increased and the vengeance is made more intense.  Let us not then emulate these; but if any man has succeeded to virtue, if any man has obtained spiritual wealth, [him let us emulate]. For (it is said) "Woe to them that trust in their riches" cf.Psalm 49:6: "Blessed are they that fear the Lord." Psalm 128:1 To which of these, tell me, would you belong? Doubtless to those who are pronounced blessed. Therefore emulate these, not the other, that you also may obtain the good things which are laid up for them. Which may we all obtain, in Christ Jesus our Lord, with whom to the Father be glory together with the Holy Ghost, now and for ever, and world without end. Amen.



    St. Chrysostom

    Homily 8 on First Thessalonians

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230408.htm



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    Would you see those also punished, who were of the number of believers, and who held fast to God, but were not of upright life? Hear Paul saying, "Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us murmur, as some of them murmured, and perished by the destroyer. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them tempted, and perished by the serpents." 1 Corinthians 10:8-10 And if fornication, and if murmuring had such power, what will not be the effect of our sins? And if you dost not now pay the penalty, do not wonder. For they knew not of a hell, therefore they were visited with punishments following close at their heels. But you, whatever sins thou commit, though you should escape present penalty, will pay for it all There.

    Did he so punish those who were nearly in the state of children, and who did not sin so greatly — and will He spare us? It would not be reasonable. For if we commit the same sins with them, we shall deserve a greater punishment than they did.  Wherefore? Because we have enjoyed more grace. But when our offenses are numerous, and more heinous than theirs, what vengeance shall we not undergo? They — and let no one think I say it as admiring them, or excusing them; far be it: for when God punishes, he who passes a contrary sentence, does it at the suggestion of the devil; I say this therefore, not praising them nor excusing them, but showing our wickedness— they therefore, although they murmured, were, however, traveling a wilderness road: but we murmur though we have a country, and are in our own houses. They, although they committed fornication, yet it was just after they came out of the evils of Egypt, and had hardly heard of such a law. But we do it, having previously received from our forefathers the doctrine of salvation, so that we are deserving of greater punishment.




    St. Chrysostom

    Homily 1 on the Acts of the Apostles

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210101.htm



    Quote
    As if then we were banquetting with Christ Himself, and partaking of His table, let us do nothing at random, but let us pass our time in fastings, and prayers, and much sobriety of mind. For if a man who is destined to enter upon some temporal government, prepares himself all his life long, and that he may obtain some dignity, lays out his money, spends his time, and submits to endless troubles; what shall we deserve, who draw near to the kingdom of heaven with such negligence, and both show no earnestness before we have received, and after having received are again negligent? Nay, this is the very reason why we are negligent after having received, that we did not watch before we had received.

    Therefore many, after they have received, immediately have returned to their former vomit, and have become more wicked, and drawn upon themselves a more severe punishment; when having been delivered from their former sins, herein they have more grievously provoked the Judge, that having been delivered from so great a disease, still they did not learn sobriety, but that has happened unto them, which Christ threatened to the paralytic man, saying, "Behold you are made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto you" John 5:14: and which He also predicted of the Jєωs, that "the last state shall be worse than the first." Matthew 12:45 For if, says He, showing that by their ingratitude they should bring upon them the worst of evils, "if I had not come, and spoken unto them, they had not had sin" John 15:22; so that the guilt of sins committed after these benefits is doubled and quadrupled, in that, after the honour put upon us, we show ourselves ungrateful and wicked. And the Laver of Baptism helps not a whit to procure for us a milder punishment.

    And consider: a man has gotten grievous sins by committing murder or adultery, or some other crime: these were remitted through Baptism. For there is no sin, no impiety, which does not yield and give place to this gift; for the Grace is Divine. A man has again committed adultery and murder; the former adultery is indeed done away, the murder forgiven, and not brought up again to his charge, "for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" Romans 11:29; but for those committed after Baptism he suffers a punishment as great as he would if both the former sins were brought up again, and many worse than these. For the guilt is no longer simply equal, but doubled and tripled. Look: in proof that the penalty of these sins is greater, hear what St. Paul says: "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy, under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Hebrews 10:28-29

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #36 on: April 01, 2022, 09:56:36 PM »
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  • Okay, now I better understand what you mean and agree.

    Which returns me to my initial question:

    It's possible of course that He could have willed such a fall, but the way it was depicted make it look like clumsiness.  Be that as it may, this is speculative on my part and that of Gladius, but what bothers me about the scene is the depiction of Our Blessed Mother as losing her composure, between the expression on her face and frantically flailing her hands in panic.  She never panicked beause she had perfect confidence in God.  Such "anxiety" bespeaks a lack of confidence and resignation to God.  Not to mention that it's silly.  For someone other than Our Lady, such a state of panic might be understandable had their child, say, fallen off a root, but the child in the movie literally fell and landed rather gently on some straw from his height of about 2 feet tall.  That reaction would have been pathetic even for an ordinary woman, much less Our Blessed Mother.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #37 on: April 01, 2022, 10:09:41 PM »
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  • If the Christ Child encountered no difficulties (I realize no one has said that, but if He was incapable of even tripping, it certainly raises the question) what exactly did the Blessed Mother *do* to raise Him? Is she as the perfect Mother purely theoretical? Because it is sounding an awful lot like she never had to comfort Him, never had to assist Him, never had to do any of the things that constitute actually being a good mother.

    Is it not likely that being a completely sinless Mother of a Divine Child is rather different from being a fallen, sinful mother of a fallen sinner?  Much of the suffering that sinful mortals endure results from the effects of original sin, so absolutely all of that can be taken out of the discussion.  He was certainly never ill, so there goes that common form of motherly comforting.

    She gave Him lifeblood, fed Him at the breast, prepared His and St. Joseph's meals, etc.  He was likely very cold at times, such as when born in a rude stable, and naturally She would do what She could to keep Him warm.  

    Does anyone think She and St. Joseph taught Him to read and write, mathematics, etc?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline UMCGB

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #38 on: April 01, 2022, 10:15:26 PM »
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  • [...]
    Quote
    538.
    Among the obscure caverns of the infernal prisons was a very large one, arranged for more horrible chastisements than the others, and which was still unoccupied; for the demons had been unable to cast any soul into it, although their cruelty had induced them to attempt it many times from the time of Cain unto that day. All hell had remained astonished at the failure of these attempts, being entirely ignorant of the mystery, until the arrival of the soul of Judas, which they readily succeeded in hurling and burying in this prison never before occupied by any of the damned. The secret of it was, that this cavern of greater torments and fiercer fires of hell, from the creation of the world, had been destined for those, who, after having received Baptism, would damn themselves by the neglect of the Sacraments, the doctrines, the Passion and Death of the Savior, and the intercession of his most holy Mother. As Judas had been the first one who had so signally participated in these blessings, and as he had so fearfully misused them, he was also the first to suffer the torments of this place, prepared for him and his imitators and followers.


    Your entire quotes are explaining fallen Catholics in comparison to other non-Jєωs. The Jєωs have a worse eternal punishment. Regarding the quote above, Judas was never baptized. He committed ѕυιcιdє after initiating the course that led to the murder of Jesus Christ by the Jєωs. He was cast into this worse cavern of hell because he was the first dead soul guilty of Deicide. A Jєω, of course.
    Please, take a course in ecclesiology, theology, hermeneutics and critical thinking.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #39 on: April 02, 2022, 10:32:23 AM »
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  • Who said that Our Lord would have encountered "no difficulties" or wouldn't have been "fully human"?  What we're saying is that He would not trip and fall out of mere clumsiness as depicted in the film, resulting from lack of control over His Body and / or being inattentive to where He was walking.  He spent His entire life in penance and subjected Himself to all manner of suffering, but of His own will.

    To attribute to Our Lord various frailties, however, that are the result of fallen nature is not to "fully humanize" Him by any stretch.  That's one step away from saying that He would not have been fully human had he not felt the tug of His lower nature working against His will during temptations, that if, say, He were to have seen a beautiful woman, that His lower nature was drawing Him to impurity as happens to fallen men.  We have to distinguish what is fully human in an unfallen human being (i.e. what is essentially human) and those things that are the product of Original Sin.  Since He did not labor under Original Sin, Our Lord's Body was under complete and absolute control of His will, an extension of his intellect and will, and was limited only with its innate capabilities.  So for instance, at some point His muscles gave way under the weight of the cross and could endure no more.  His heart gave out from His suffering on the Cross.  But that's differen than saying He could fall out of clumsiness and inattentiveness.  I agree completely with Gladius.  I had never give this much thought, but once he said it, it makes perfect sense.
    .
    I am not sure the usual course of child development can be considered a 'frailty.' I think that's very much what's at issue. Children are not born physically helpless as a function of original sin. They don't have to learn to walk, or run, or balance because of original sin or fallen nature. It's IN our nature to develop, to grow in excellence. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #40 on: April 02, 2022, 11:13:30 AM »
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  • .
    I am not sure the usual course of child development can be considered a 'frailty.' I think that's very much what's at issue. Children are not born physically helpless as a function of original sin. They don't have to learn to walk, or run, or balance because of original sin or fallen nature. It's IN our nature to develop, to grow in excellence.

    There are certainly natural limits, so for instance, I'm sure that Our Lord fell from time to time when He was first learning how to walk ... but those are due to inherent physical limitations.  What was depicted in the film was a clumsiness due to being inattentive.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #41 on: April 02, 2022, 12:13:19 PM »
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  • At risk of being pedantic, inattentiveness comes in different varieties. For example, there is a difference between a grown man walking into a lamp-post while in public and a child misjudging the distance needed to take a step. One of these types of inattentiveness is vicious (the grown man, who by all accounts should understand how to 'look where he's going'), whilst the other very likely isn't vicious (children, quite innocently, do not have the same spacial awareness as an adult-- not by vicious defect, but simply by nature of their development). 

    As far as interpreting the visual in question, it didn't seem to me a vicious kind of inattentiveness given the age of the child. If it was a vicious inattentiveness, the I think I agree with your point. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #42 on: April 02, 2022, 12:30:57 PM »
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  • OK, but Gladius and I are saying that any kind of inattentiveness is not possible for Our Lord given that He was not afflicted with the effects of Original Sin.  I don't want to spent a lot of time arguing about it.  It's not a matter of faith, just a conclusion I draw from the effects of Original Sin (to extrapolate back to someone who would not be effected by it), and you're entitled to your view on the matter.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #43 on: April 02, 2022, 12:44:08 PM »
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  • Let me play devils advocate here…I don’t see why Our Lord wouldn’t suspend his Divine intelligence/power, as part of suffering, and live like a “normal child”.  Scripture repeatedly tells us that the towns where Our Lord grew up rejected Him as the Messiah because they considered Him as a “normal man” and couldn’t accept He was special.  

    Also let’s remember that Our Lord was 12 yrs old when He was “lost in the Temple” and Our Lady and St Joseph we’re surprised at where they found Him and His answer.  So, it’s implied His childhood was a normal one, not filled with daily miracles or suspensions of human frailty. 

    I think it’s quite in line with His humility that He would hide His divinity, and live a normal life, until His 3 year public life.  

    Just a thought. 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #44 on: April 02, 2022, 12:48:34 PM »
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  • Let me play devils advocate here…I don’t see why Our Lord wouldn’t suspend his Divine intelligence/power, as part of suffering, and live like a “normal child”.  Scripture repeatedly tells us that the towns where Our Lord grew up rejected Him as the Messiah because they considered Him as a “normal man” and couldn’t accept He was special. 

    Also let’s remember that Our Lord was 12 yrs old when He was “lost in the Temple” and Our Lady and St Joseph we’re surprised at where they found Him and His answer.  So, it’s implied His childhood was a normal one, not filled with daily miracles or suspensions of human frailty.

    I think it’s quite in line with His humility that He would hide His divinity, and live a normal life, until His 3 year public life. 

    Just a thought.
    Excellent post.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17