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Author Topic: Mel Gibson/Resurrection  (Read 2849 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2022, 01:00:33 PM »
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  • Regarding the quote above, Judas was never baptized.



    The Mystical City of God, Venerable Mary of Agreda

    CITY OF GOD PART II, THE TRANSFIXION BOOK VI

    Chapter IV

    THE DEVIL IS MUCH DISTURBED AND DISCONCERTED ON ACCOUNT OF THE MIRACLES OF CHRIST AND OF SAINT JOHN THE BAPTIST. HEROD SEIZES AND BEHEADS SAINT JOHN; SOME PARTICULARS OF HIS DEATH.




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    The Redeemer of the world, departing from Jerusalem and traveling about in Judea for some time, pursued the work of preaching and performing miracles. While He was baptizing and at the same time commissioning his disciples to baptize, as is recorded in the third and fourth chapter of Saint John’s Gospel, his Precursor also continued to baptize in Ainon on the banks of the Jordan near the city of Salem. But the Baptisms of the Lord and those of saint John were not of the same kind: for saint John continued to give only the baptism of water and of penance, while our Lord administered his own Baptism, that of real pardon of sins and justification, such as it is now in the Church, accompanied by the infusion of grace and of the virtues. To the mysterious power and effects of the Baptism of Christ was moreover added the efficacy of his words and instructions confirmed by the wonder of his miracles. On this account more disciples and followers soon gathered around Christ than around saint John, in fulfillment of the words of the Baptist, that Christ must grow, while he must be diminished (John 3, 22). At the Baptisms of the Lord his most holy Mother ordinarily was present and She beheld all the great results of this regeneration in the favored souls.



    Chapter V

    THE FAVORS BESTOWED UPON THE APOSTLES BY CHRIST, THE SAVIOR, ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR DEVOTION TO HIS MOST HOLY MOTHER, AND THE SAD PERDITION OF JUDAS ON ACCOUNT OF NEGLECT OF THIS DEVOTION.




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    375.

    Judas was attracted to the school of Christ our Teacher by his forceful doctrines, and was filled with the same good intentions which moved the others. Powerfully drawn by these motives, he asked the Savior to admit him among his disciples, and the Savior received him with the bowels of a loving Father, who rejects none that come to Him in search of truth. In the beginning Judas merited special favors and forged ahead of some of the other disciples, deserving to be numbered among the twelve Apostles; for the Savior loved his soul according to its present state of grace and his good works, just as He did the others. The Mother of grace and mercy observed the same course with him, although by her infused knowledge She immediately became aware of the perfidious treachery with which he was to end his apostolate.

    She did not, on this account, deny him her intercession and maternal love; but she applied Herself even more zealously to justify as far as possible the cause of her divine Son against this perfidious and unfortunate man, in order that his wickedness, as soon as it should be put into action, might not have the shadow of an excuse before men. Well knowing that such a character as his could not be overcome by rigor, but would only be driven by it to so much the greater obstinacy, the most prudent Lady took care, that none of the wants or the comforts of Judas should be ignored and She began to treat him, speak and listen to him more gently and lovingly than to all the rest. This She carried so far, that Judas, when the disciples once disputed among themselves concerning their standing with the Queen (as, according to the Evangelist [Luke 22, 24], it happened also concerning the Redeemer), never experienced the least jealousy or doubt in this matter; for the blessed Lady in the beginning always distinguished him by tokens of special love and he, at that time, also showed himself thankful for these favors.




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    376.

    But as Judas found little support in his natural disposition, and as the disciples, not being as yet confirmed in virtue and not as yet even in grace, were guilty of some human failings, the imprudent man began to compliment himself on his perfection and to take more notice of the faults of his brethren than of his own (Luke 6,41). He permitted himself thus to be deceived, making no effort to amend or repent, he allowed the beam in his own eyes to grow while watching the splinters in the eyes of others. Complaining of their little faults and seeking, with more presumption than zeal, to correct the weaknesses of his brethren, he committed greater sins himself. Among the other Apostles he singled out saint John, looking upon him as an inter meddler and accusing him in his heart of ingratiating himself with the Master and his blessed Mother. The fact that he received so many special favors from Them was of no avail to deter him from this false assumption. Yet so far Judas had committed only venial sins and had not lost sanctifying grace. But they argued a very bad disposition, in which he willfully persevered. He had freely entertained a certain vain complacency in himself; this at once called into existence a certain amount of envy, which brought on a calumnious spirit and harshness in judging of the faults of his brethren. These sins opened the way for greater sins; for immediately the fervor of his devotion decreased, his charity toward God and men grew cold, and his interior light was lost and extinguished; he began to look upon the Apostles and upon the most holy Mother with a certain disgust and find little pleasure in their intercourse and their heavenly activity.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #46 on: April 02, 2022, 01:17:31 PM »
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  • Mary Agreda described the youthful Lord as very serious and my remembrance was that she said that although He was extremely sweet and accommodating, He was quiet, somber, distant and detached to the point of concern/wonder for Our Lady and St. Joseph.  I doubt He played like other children because He was often in prayer and suffering from His birth. The crucifixion was the culmination of a life of suffering. Our Lord wasted no time on frivolity and lived a very austere life.  The depiction of Him playing like other little boys wasn't in character, at least according to Agreda.       


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #47 on: April 02, 2022, 01:29:44 PM »
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  • Mary Agreda described the youthful Lord as very serious and my remembrance was that she said that although He was extremely sweet and accommodating, He was quiet, somber, distant and detached to the point of concern/wonder for Our Lady and St. Joseph.  I doubt He played like other children because He was often in prayer and suffering from His birth. The crucifixion was the culmination of a life of suffering. Our Lord wasted no time on frivolity and lived a very austere life.  The depiction of Him playing like other little boys wasn't in character, at least according to Agreda.     

    I have no doubt but that He lived His entire life doing penance in repration for the sins of the world.  We see that even with the children at Fatima.  After they were shown the souls falling into Hell by Our Lady, they did very little else beside try to find ways to do penance in order to save souls.  Anything we see in the life of any saint with regard to holiness, we can be sure they were utterly eclipsed by Our Lord.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #48 on: April 02, 2022, 01:31:40 PM »
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  • Judas could not have been baptized, since he committed ѕυιcιdє before Our Lord instituted the Sacrament of Baptism.  He may have received the baptism of St. John, that of repentance, but not the actual Sacrament of Baptism.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #49 on: April 02, 2022, 01:45:05 PM »
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  • Judas could not have been baptized, since he committed ѕυιcιdє before Our Lord instituted the Sacrament of Baptism.  He may have received the baptism of St. John, that of repentance, but not the actual Sacrament of Baptism.


    The Mystical City of God, Venerable Mary of Agreda

    CITY OF GOD PART II, THE TRANSFIXION BOOK VI

    Chapter XXIV
    OUR SAVIOR JESUS GOES TO THE BANKS OF THE JORDAN, WHERE HE IS BAPTIZED BY SAINT JOHN. SAINT JOHN HIMSELF THEN ASKS TO BE BAPTIZED BY THE SAVIOR.




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    268.

    When saint John had finished baptizing our Lord, the heavens opened and the Holy Ghost descended visibly in the form of a dove upon his head and the voice of his Father was heard: “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matth. 3, 17). Many of the bystanders heard this voice, namely, those who were not unworthy of such a wonderful favor; they also saw the Holy Ghost descending upon the Savior. This was the most convincing proof which could ever be given of the Divinity of the Savior, as well on the part of the Father, who acknowledged Him his Son, as also in regard to the nature of the testimony given; for without any reserve was Christ manifested as the true God, equal to his eternal Father in substance and in perfection. The Father himself wished to be the first to testify to the Divinity of Christ in order that by virtue of his testimony all the other witnesses might be ratified. There was also another mystery in this voice of the eternal Father: it was as it were a restoration of the honor of his Son before the world and a recompense for his having thus humiliated Himself by receiving the Baptism of the remission of sins, though He was entirely free from fault and never could have upon Him the guilt of sin (Heb. 7, 26).



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    269.

    This act of humiliation in receiving Baptism in the company of those who were sinners, Christ our Redeemer offered up to the eternal Father as an act of acknowledgment of the inferiority of his human nature, which, in common with all the rest of the children of men, He had derived from Adam. By it He also instituted the sacrament of Baptism, which was to wash away the sins of the world through his merits. By thus humiliating Himself in this baptism of sins, He sought and obtained from the eternal Father a general pardon for all those who were to receive it; He freed them from the power of the demon and of sin, and regenerated them to a new existence, spiritual and supernatural as adopted sons of the Most High, brethren of their Redeemer and Lord. The past, present and future sins of men always remaining in the sight of the eternal Father, had prevented the effects of this Baptism; but Christ our Lord merited the application of this so easy and delightful remedy, so that the eternal Father was obliged to accept it in justice as a complete satisfaction according to all the requirements of his equity. Christ was also not deterred from thus securing this remedy by his foreknowledge of the abuse of holy Baptism by so many mortals in all ages and of its neglect by innumerable others. All these impediments and hindrances Christ our Lord removed by satisfying for their offenses, humiliating Himself and assuming the form of a sinner in his Baptism (Rom. 8, 3). This is the meaning of the words: suffer it to be so now for so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then in order to honor the incarnate Word and in recompense for his humiliation, and in order to approve of Baptism and establish its wonderful efficacy, the eternal Father gave forth his voice and the Holy Ghost descended. Thus was Christ proclaimed as the true Son of God, and all three Persons of the Holy Trinity ratified the sacramental rite of Baptism.



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    270.

    The great Baptist was the one who reaped the greatest fruit from these wonders of holy Baptism; for he not only baptized his Redeemer and Master, saw the Holy Ghost and the celestial light descending upon the Lord together with innumerable angels, heard the voice of the Father and saw many other mysteries by divine revelation: but besides all this, he himself was baptized by the Redeemer. The Gospel indeed says no more than that he asked for it, but at the same time it also does not say that it was denied him; for, without a doubt, Christ after his own Baptism, conferred it also on his Precursor and Baptist. It was He that instituted this Sacrament afterwards as He made it a general law and enjoined the public ministration of it upon the Apostles after the Resurrection. As I shall relate later on, it was also the Lord who baptized his most holy Mother before its general promulgation, and He, on that occasion, established the form in which Baptism was to be administered. These facts were made known to me, and also that saint John was the first fruit of the Baptism of Christ our Lord and of the new Church, which He founded in this Sacrament. Through it the Baptist received the character of a Christian together with a great plenitude of grace, since he had not upon him original sin; for he had been justified by the Redeemer before he was born, as was said in its place. By the answer of the Savior: “Suffer it to be so now, that all justice be fulfilled,” He did not refuse, but He deferred saint John’s Baptism until He himself should have been baptized and have fulfilled the requirements of God’s justice. Immediately after his own Baptism He baptized saint John, gave him his blessing, and betook Himself to the desert.



    Chapter XXIX

    CHRIST RETURNS WITH THE FIVE FIRST DISCIPLES TO NAZARETH; HE BAPTIZES HIS MOST HOLY MOTHER; OTHER INCIDENTS DURING THIS TIME.



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    319.

    The most blessed Lady also asked Him for the Sacrament of Baptism, which He had now instituted, and which He had promised Her before. In order that this might be administered with a dignity becoming as well the Son as the Mother, an innumerable host of angelic spirits descended from heaven in visible forms. Attended by them, Christ himself baptized his purest Mother. Immediately the voice of the eternal Father was heard saying: “This is my beloved Daughter, in whom I take delight.” The incarnate Word said: “This is my Mother, much beloved, whom I have chosen and who will assist Me in all my works.” And the Holy Ghost added: “This is my Spouse, chosen among thousands.” The purest Lady felt and received such great and numerous effects of grace in her soul, that no human words can describe them; for She was exalted to new heights of grace and her holy soul was made resplendent with new and exquisite beauty of heaven. She received the characteristic token impressed by this Sacrament, namely, that of the children of Christ in his holy Church. In addition to the ordinary effects of this Sacrament (outside of the remission of sins, of which She stood in no need), She merited especial graces on account of the humility with which She submitted to this Sacrament of purification. By it She accuмulated blessings like to those of her divine Son, with only this difference: that She received an increase of grace, which was not possible in Christ. Thereupon the humble Mother broke out in .a canticle of praise with the holy angels, and prostrate before her divine Son, She thanked Him for the most efficacious graces She had received in this Sacrament.







    This is prior to the miracle performed at the wedding, at Cana.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #50 on: April 02, 2022, 01:53:26 PM »
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  • Judas could not have been baptized, since he committed ѕυιcιdє before Our Lord instituted the Sacrament of Baptism.  He may have received the baptism of St. John, that of repentance, but not the actual Sacrament of Baptism.
    Judas had the same opportunities the patriarchs had, and baptism wasn't absolutely necessary at the time, so his was a deep seated dishonesty and perversion of soul that was his undoing.  Perhaps avoidance of the baptism of John was the beginning of it.  

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #51 on: April 02, 2022, 03:29:17 PM »
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  • As you note, The Passion was a meditation of the Sorrowful Mysteries. The Resurrection will similarly be a reflection on those mysteries. I hope that Mel lives and works long enough to do the Joyful Mysteries.


    "Thank you for your support guys... you're generous praise is making me blush... gosh, I think I'm gonna cry..."
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #52 on: April 02, 2022, 03:33:33 PM »
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  • Maybe his eye offended God and he plucked it out..


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #53 on: April 02, 2022, 09:25:22 PM »
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  • Also let’s remember that Our Lord was 12 yrs old when He was “lost in the Temple” and Our Lady and St Joseph we’re surprised at where they found Him and His answer.  So, it’s implied His childhood was a normal one, not filled with daily miracles or suspensions of human frailty.

    He wasn't "lost IN the Temple" like some clueless child who simply took a wrong turn on the way to the WC or the Holy of Holies.  Mary and Joseph left town as part of the larger caravan and didn't realize He had stayed behind to begin manifesting His wisdom.  They FOUND Him in the Temple, blowing the minds of the so-called Doctors, after they had lost track of His whereabouts travelling home.  "In quinto mysterio gaudioso, Inventionem Domini Nostri Jesu Christi contemplamur..."

    No one is implying the performance of a single miracle or suspension of human frailty, so there ends that discussion.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #54 on: April 02, 2022, 09:28:54 PM »
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  • I think Our Lord underwent the same development all human children undergo, and that includes motor skill coordination. There are probably some differences in His development given His divine nature

    Reread this and tell me it isn't a bunch of contradictory nonsense.  It's one or the other.

    Who taught Him to read and write?  Math?
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #55 on: April 02, 2022, 10:18:05 PM »
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  • I find Aquinas helpful in understanding our Lord's human frailty:

    Article 1. Whether the Son of God in human nature ought to have assumed defects of body?

    Objection 1. It would seem that the Son of God ought not to have assumed human nature with defects of body. For as His soul is personally united to the Word of God, so also is His body. But the soul of Christ had every perfection, both of grace and truth, as was said above (III:7:9; 9, seqq.). Hence, His body also ought to have been in every way perfect, not having any imperfection in it.

    Objection 2. Further, the soul of Christ saw the Word of God by the vision wherein the blessed see, as was said above (III:9:2), and thus the soul of Christ was blessed. Now by the beatification of the soul the body is glorified; since, as Augustine says (Ep. ad Dios. cxviii), "God made the soul of a nature so strong that from the fulness of its blessedness there pours over even into the lower nature" (i.e. the body), "not indeed the bliss proper to the beatific fruition and vision, but the fulness of health" (i.e. the vigor of incorruptibility). Therefore the body of Christ was incorruptible and without any defect.

    Objection 3. Further, penalty is the consequence of fault. But there was no fault in Christ, according to 1 Peter 2:22: "Who did no guile." Therefore defects of body, which are penalties, ought not to have been in Him.

    Objection 4. Further, no reasonable man assumes what keeps him from his proper end. But by such like bodily defects, the end of Incarnation seems to be hindered in many ways. First, because by these infirmities men were kept back from knowing Him, according to Isaiah 53:2-3: "[There was no sightliness] that we should be desirous of Him. Despised and the most abject of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with infirmity, and His look was, as it were, hidden and despised, whereupon we esteemed Him not." Secondly, because the de. sire of the Fathers would not seem to be fulfilled, in whose person it is written (Isaiah 51:9): "Arise, arise, put on Thy strength, O Thou Arm of the Lord." Thirdly, because it would seem more fitting for the devil's power to be overcome and man's weakness healed, by strength than by weakness. Therefore it does not seem to have been fitting that the Son of God assumed human nature with infirmities or defects of body.

    On the contrary, It is written (Hebrews 2:18): "For in that, wherein He Himself hath suffered and been tempted, He is able to succor them also that are tempted." Now He came to succor us. hence David said of Him (Psalm 120:1): "I have lifted up my eyes to the mountains, from whence help shall come to me." Therefore it was fitting for the Son of God to assume flesh subject to human infirmities, in order to suffer and be tempted in it and so bring succor to us.

    I answer that, It was fitting for the body assumed by the Son of God to be subject to human infirmities and defects; and especially for three reasons. First, because it was in order to satisfy for the sin of the human race that the Son of God, having taken flesh, came into the world. Now one satisfies for another's sin by taking on himself the punishment due to the sin of the other. But these bodily defects, to wit, death, hunger, thirst, and the like, are the punishment of sin, which was brought into the world by Adam, according to Romans 5:12: "By one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death." Hence it was useful for the end of Incarnation that He should assume these penalties in our flesh and in our stead, according to Isaiah 53:4, "Surely He hath borne our infirmities." Secondly, in order to cause belief in Incarnation. For since human nature is known to men only as it is subject to these defects, if the Son of God had assumed human nature without these defects, He would not have seemed to be true man, nor to have true, but imaginary, flesh, as the Manicheans held. And so, as is said, Philippians 2:7: "He . . . emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man." Hence, Thomas, by the sight of His wounds, was recalled to the faith, as related John 20:26. Thirdly, in order to show us an example of patience by valiantly bearing up against human passibility and defects. Hence it is said (Hebrews 12:3) that He "endured such opposition from sinners against Himself, that you be not wearied. fainting in your minds."

    Reply to Objection 1. The penalties one suffers for another's sin are the matter, as it were, of the satisfaction for that sin; but the principle is the habit of soul, whereby one is inclined to wish to satisfy for another, and from which the satisfaction has its efficacy, for satisfaction would not be efficacious unless it proceeded from charity, as will be explained (Supplement:14:2). Hence, it behooved the soul of Christ to be perfect as regards the habit of knowledge and virtue, in order to have the power of satisfying; but His body was subject to infirmities, that the matter of satisfaction should not be wanting.

    Reply to Objection 2. From the natural relationship which is between the soul and the body, glory flows into the body from the soul's glory. Yet this natural relationship in Christ was subject to the will of His Godhead, and thereby it came to pass that the beatitude remained in the soul, and did not flow into the body; but the flesh suffered what belongs to a passible nature; thus Damascene says (De Fide Orth. iii, 15) that, "it was by the consent of the Divine will that the flesh was allowed to suffer and do what belonged to it."

    Reply to Objection 3. Punishment always follows sin actual or original, sometimes of the one punished, sometimes of the one for whom he who suffers the punishment satisfies. And so it was with Christ, according to Isaiah 53:5: "He was wounded for our iniquities, He was bruised for our sins."



    Reply to Objection 4. The infirmity assumed by Christ did not impede, but greatly furthered the end of Incarnation, as above stated. And although these infirmities concealed His Godhead, they made known His Manhood, which is the way of coming to the Godhead, according to Romans 5:1-2: "By Jesus Christ we have access to God." Moreover, the ancient Fathers did not desire bodily strength in Christ, but spiritual strength, wherewith He vanquished the devil and healed human weakness.

    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #56 on: April 02, 2022, 10:28:32 PM »
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  • I answer that, It was fitting for the body assumed by the Son of God to be subject to human infirmities and defects; and especially for three reasons. First, because it was in order to satisfy for the sin of the human race that the Son of God, having taken flesh, came into the world. Now one satisfies for another's sin by taking on himself the punishment due to the sin of the other. But these bodily defects, to wit, death, hunger, thirst, and the like, are the punishment of sin, which was brought into the world by Adam, according to Romans 5:12: "By one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death." Hence it was useful for the end of Incarnation that He should assume these penalties in our flesh and in our stead, according to Isaiah 53:4, "Surely He hath borne our infirmities."

    Frailties such as "..death, hunger, thirst and the like..."

    Not exactly germane with truly applicable specificity, but a wonderful excerpt all the same. Thank you.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #57 on: April 03, 2022, 07:34:00 AM »
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  • Yes, there are frailties ... and then there are frailties.  And that's the discussion here, as to which types of frailties would have been assumed by Our Lord (of His will) and which weren't.  We know for instance that He had no concupiscence or irascibility, since His lower nature was under control of His higher nture.  We have a lot of mental and intellectual defects as the result of Original Sin that were not assumed by Our Lord.

    Offline bilbobaggins

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #58 on: April 04, 2022, 02:54:18 PM »
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  • https://headlineusa.com/buzz-passion-of-the-christ-sequel/

    Great stuff. i know he has another movie coming out about a priest that looked good. 

    Online Miseremini

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    Re: Mel Gibson/Resurrection
    « Reply #59 on: April 04, 2022, 03:27:25 PM »
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  • He spent His entire life in penance and subjected Himself to all manner of suffering, but of His own will.
    So did he suffer only spiritually from birth to the passion?
    We're talking about a movie here.  It was only Gibson's way of depicting that Our Mother throughout the life of her Son had his well being as probably her only concern.
    Gibson could have shown a scene of Jesus being arrested in the garden,then a flashback to Our Mother consoling Him after he had been bullied by a group of kids.
    It's a movie, and one man's vision of portraying it.
    Let's be thankful he did it as well as he did.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]