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Author Topic: Mel Gibson  (Read 14265 times)

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Offline Nadir

Re: Mel Gibson
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2022, 07:35:44 PM »
Quote from: buxtehude on June 26, 2022, 06:49:45 AM
You made a generalization about the Devil not Mary so the emphasis or presence of Mary does not undo the fallacious logic:

"St John mentions a war between the devil and Mary + saints, therefore the devil is only seeking to harm Mary + saints."

This is the fallacy of hasty generalization. Just because St John mentions a war between the devil and Mary + saints does not mean that the devil is also not leading astray, further perverting and destroying mankind as a whole too.

“Mankind as a whole”, with the exception of those souls who have committed themselves to Jesus Christ, i.e. the Blessed Virgin Mary + the saints, is already in the clutches of the devil.

Why would the devil need to lead astray those who are already astray?
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Offline Emile

  • Supporter
Re: Mel Gibson
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2022, 08:22:21 PM »
Quote from: Incredulous on June 26, 2022, 01:39:03 PM
Bux-babe,

Are you just another covert protestant trolling a trad Catholic forum?

:popcorn:
From this I would guess the answer is yes, but not very covert:



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Offline buxtehude

Re: Mel Gibson
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2022, 01:15:41 AM »
Quote from: Nadir on June 26, 2022, 07:35:44 PM
“Mankind as a whole”, with the exception of those souls who have committed themselves to Jesus Christ, i.e. the Blessed Virgin Mary + the saints, is already in the clutches of the devil.

Why would the devil need to lead astray those who are already astray?
You are espousing the heresy known as eternal justification which falsely teaches that men are born justified. The truth instead is that men come into a state of justification at some point in the course of their lives. It is during the interim in which the devil with great enmity is trying to stop the gospel from reaching them. This is the enmity the Devil has toward man from the beginning in Genesis 3:
"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of
thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed"
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Offline LeMond

Re: Mel Gibson
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2022, 08:27:08 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on June 26, 2022, 07:02:34 AM
You make it sound like what Mary's "work" came first. As if God looked "down the corridors of time," and said, "hey, lookie at this perfect woman, let me make her the mother of my Son." I disagree strongly with that.

Like all of the elect, she was endowed by God with saving graces that preceded anything she did or her own merits (see Haydock note on Ephesians 1 attached).His gracing caused the subsequent merits, efficaciously caused them.

She was predestined inexorably by the hand of God. She succeeded where "everyone else failed" because she was "endowed" with special graces (e.g., her immaculate conception) that none of the other elect were given. See attached pages from Fr. Garrigou Lagrange, The Mother of the Saviour.

Right but Blessed Mary still had free will. In utilizing her free will of choosing God over sin, the grace bestowed upon her before the age of reason and even at the Immaculate Conception are not in vain. If she didn't have free will, she wouldn't have grace. She'd be no different than a programmed or mechanical being who is sentient. That is the strawman that the "Orthodox" create on the Catholic Faith, and why they erroneously reject the doctrine of her being full of grace. They reject truth out of ignorance due to a strawman. Grace must be accompanied by free will.  The most important variable of the equation was her free will to choose to remain in the state of full grace throughout her blessed life.
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Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: Mel Gibson
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2022, 01:23:40 PM »
Quote from: LeMond on June 27, 2022, 08:27:08 AM
Right but Blessed Mary still had free will. In utilizing her free will of choosing God over sin, the grace bestowed upon her before the age of reason and even at the Immaculate Conception are not in vain. If she didn't have free will, she wouldn't have grace. She'd be no different than a programmed or mechanical being who is sentient. That is the strawman that the "Orthodox" create on the Catholic Faith, and why they erroneously reject the doctrine of her being full of grace. They reject truth out of ignorance due to a strawman. Grace must be accompanied by free will.  The most important variable of the equation was her free will to choose to remain in the state of full grace throughout her blessed life.

No one here is denying "free will," properly understood.  I reject only certain rebellious assertions of libertarian free will  such as Arminian Prots hold, and many Catholics too unfortunately. 

Pilate, Herod, etc., with regard to the Crucifixion of Our Lord, could not have acted differently; Our Blessed Mother also as to her "fiat." Yet they acted freely. To hold to that is to hold to a strict, orthodox, Thomistic sense of Predestination, Providence, and "free will." 

I'd be happy to discuss this fully with you here, if you'd like:

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/god's-salvific-will-to-save-'all-men'-and-the-death-of-unbaptized-infants/msg733125/#msg733125

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