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Author Topic: Mel Gibson  (Read 5587 times)

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Online Nadir

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Re: Mel Gibson
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2022, 04:40:22 PM »
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  • You are espousing the heresy known as eternal justification which falsely teaches that men are born justified. The truth instead is that men come into a state of justification at some point in the course of their lives. It is during the interim in which the devil with great enmity is trying to stop the gospel from reaching them. This is the enmity the Devil has toward man from the beginning in Genesis 3:
    "And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of
    thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed"
    Dear Buxtehude, how on earth did you come to this strange conclusion - that I espouse said heresy that men are born justified? 


    On the contrary, as a Catholic, I believe that no person is born justified. Our justification is a continuous work commenced at our Baptism. Why is exorcism performed when we are Baptised? Our justification is commenced in Baptism and we must work, through the Grace of God through, the Sacraments of the Church and right living to achieve justification.


    Just what do you mean by "some point in the course of their lives"? Sounds awfully vague and protestant to me.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline buxtehude

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    Re: Mel Gibson
    « Reply #46 on: June 27, 2022, 06:48:36 PM »
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  • Dear Buxtehude, how on earth did you come to this strange conclusion - that I espouse said heresy that men are born justified?

    “Mankind as a whole”, with the exception of those souls who have committed themselves to Jesus Christ, i.e. the Blessed Virgin Mary + the saints, is already in the clutches of the devil.

    Why would the devil need to lead astray those who are already astray?
    Because you said mankind as a whole apart from Christians are already astray therefore the Devil is not trying to lead them astray. This only works as a counter argument to me if you assume that no one in that category (mankind apart from Christians) will ever come to the faith (i.e. Eternal justification). In actuality, people from that category (mankind apart from Christians) are going to come to the faith and the Devil is with enmity trying to stop the gospel from reaching them, thus he is trying to lead them astray and thus is his enmity toward man which is from the beginning in Genesis 3.




    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Mel Gibson
    « Reply #47 on: June 28, 2022, 01:53:17 AM »
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  • You made a generalization about the Devil not Mary so the emphasis or presence of Mary does not undo the fallacious logic:

    "St John mentions a war between the devil and Mary + saints, therefore the devil is only seeking to harm Mary + saints."

    This is the fallacy of hasty generalization. Just because St John mentions a war between the devil and Mary + saints does not mean that the devil is also not leading astray, further perverting and destroying mankind as a whole too.

    Actually,  taking one point out of the context of a long list of evidence that provides a coherent argument and claiming that one point is the "whole argument" is actually a false "hasty generalization". 

    Also, changing the point of the discussion is "moving the goalposts".

    Bux, I'm afraid you seem committed to misunderstanding me as well as St John.

    Since you submit to the authority of the Catholic Church every time you open your Bible and read the Canon of the New Testament you would do well to submit to the wisdom of the early Church Fathers as well.

    I will pray for you, Bux, that you will come to know the Queen of Heaven, Ark of the New Convenant, and Mother of All Christians better and that you would be protected from the evil one who does war with her seed.  :pray:




    Offline buxtehude

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    Re: Mel Gibson
    « Reply #48 on: June 28, 2022, 07:33:54 AM »
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  • Actually,  taking one point out of the context of a long list of evidence that provides a coherent argument and claiming that one point is the "whole argument" is actually a false "hasty generalization". 

    Also, changing the point of the discussion is "moving the goalposts".

    Bux, I'm afraid you seem committed to misunderstanding me as well as St John.

    Since you submit to the authority of the Catholic Church every time you open your Bible and read the Canon of the New Testament you would do well to submit to the wisdom of the early Church Fathers as well.

    I will pray for you, Bux, that you will come to know the Queen of Heaven, Ark of the New Convenant, and Mother of All Christians better and that you would be protected from the evil one who does war with her seed.  :pray:
    I'm not committed to misunderstanding you, it was a long list as you said. Now, is this a correct summary of you?:

    "St John says that Satan seduces the whole world and Moses says that Eve was beguiled by the serpent. Therefore the world/Eve and her descendants are on Satan's side leaving only Mary and the Christians for Satan to have enmity with."

    My response:
    (Speaking only of Satan's efforts to suppress the gospel) This might be possible for one generation, where Satan has secured the generation in deception and the remainder being Christians. But it is impossible for multiple generations where Satan's enmity to suppress the gospel from man is continually renewed because of the new people being born. Since the new people being born are descendants of Eve we can call this continual struggle 'Satan's enmity towards Eve's seed' fulfilling Genesis 3.