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Author Topic: How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?  (Read 1852 times)

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Offline s2srea

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How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
« on: September 24, 2013, 10:42:19 PM »
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  • How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?

    Lets say I wanted to use Rosetta Stone's Latin program....


    Offline Vladimir

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #1 on: September 24, 2013, 10:48:08 PM »
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  • Considering that Ecclesiastical Latin stems from the Classical language it doesn't seem contradictory to start with the latter, although I have heard (I cannot confirm this to be true or not) that the Classical language is harder to learn.

    You might be interested in Henle's book series. He teaches both Classical and Ecclesiastical. Learning Classical will give you a foundation to read plenty of good material. Seneca for example.




    Offline Stephen Francis

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #2 on: September 24, 2013, 10:54:45 PM »
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  • Not everyone here likes Traditio.com, but if you Google "What Traditional Catholic Resources Do You Recommend?", you'll find a list of very good reading and study suggestions, including ecclesiastical Latin courses.

    I have found every book suggestion I have taken from that list to be extremely edifying and totally traditional and profoundly Catholic in scope.

    In fact, I'll save you the trouble; here's a link:

    Traditional Catholic Resources - Bibles, Books, Catechisms, Latin Courses, etc.
    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar

    Offline s2srea

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #3 on: September 25, 2013, 09:07:50 AM »
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  • Thanks guys.

    SF- I'll take a look at those links. Thank you!

    Offline ShepherdofSheep

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #4 on: September 25, 2013, 09:18:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    Considering that Ecclesiastical Latin stems from the Classical language it doesn't seem contradictory to start with the latter, although I have heard (I cannot confirm this to be true or not) that the Classical language is harder to learn.

    You might be interested in Henle's book series. He teaches both Classical and Ecclesiastical. Learning Classical will give you a foundation to read plenty of good material. Seneca for example.


    I taught myself Latin via Henle's books while in high school.  I cannot recommend them more highly.
    The good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep.  But the hireling, and he that is not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and flieth, and the wolf catcheth, and scattereth the sheep.  A


    Offline Matthew

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #5 on: September 25, 2013, 12:33:39 PM »
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  • The problem with Classical Latin, is that instead of

    Veni, Vidi, Vici, you have

    "wenny, widdy, wicky"

    And vicissem becomes "We kiss 'em!"

    I got those from an old movie -- something along the lines of "Goodbye Mr. Chips" -- about an old professor.

    I can't get past that silliness. Ecclesiastical pronunciation all the way for me.
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    Offline claudel

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #6 on: September 25, 2013, 01:18:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    The problem with Classical Latin …. Ecclesiastical pronunciation all the way for me.


    You have confused pronunciation with grammar, usage, and mechanics, not to mention the most important difference: the meaning of words, phrases, and idioms. Either form of Latin can be pronounced in the classical or ecclesiastical manner.

    As for pronunciational silliness, the instance you cite can't begin to compare with the one that even my then seventy-year-old high school teacher (an Irish-born brother named Fitzgerald with a deep knowledge of classical languages and literature and a diehard for classical pronunciation save in the liturgy) related to us students, though he left off pronouncing the third word in the following series:

    [the verb to know, present tense, indicative singular]: scio, scis, scit.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #7 on: September 25, 2013, 02:06:20 PM »
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  • I think you should begin with Classical pronunciation, since it is more complex and shares many phonemes with classical Attic Greek.  Ecclesiastical pronunciation, while beautiful, shows signs of degeneration and progression on a continuum towards modern standard Italian.  Diphthongs adopt single vowel values, compound consonant sounds begin a single mixed sound, and the distinction between short and long vowels disappears -- all become long.  It is easier to go from Classical pronunciation, therefore, to ecclesiastical, which is more or less the same Latin but pronounced in a modern Italian manner.  Besides, it is good to learn about classical Roman culture, history, rhetoric, etc.

    I used to be very strongly opposed to Classical pronunciation, but now I see how the linguistic reasoning behind it is insuperable.  As for the declaration of Iulius Caesar (Yoo-lee-ooss Kahy-sarh, not Chay-sar) after the Battle of Zela, he wouldn't have sounded as silly as modern United-Statesians with Anglophone accents trying to pronounce the words, so I wouldn't worry much about that.  Spoken Classical Latin is very beautiful and sounds much more Mediterranean and quite different than most imitations I have ever heard from heavily accent-burdened Anglophones.  Same with vicissem, particularly the stress would be different, as would subtleties of the pronunciation of the consonants.


    Offline claudel

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #8 on: September 25, 2013, 03:47:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?

    Lets say I wanted to use Rosetta Stone's Latin program . . .


    It's very different. But why haven't you referred to your own thread from this past June (Latin/General Discussion)? You got a great many responses there, including this one from me (excerpted):

    Quote from: claudel
    No one so far has mentioned something of overriding importance: that s2srea is interested in learning Latin so as "to be proficient enough to read through the Missale Romanum." But to read the Missal, he needs to learn ecclesiastical Latin, which is a species of Late Latin and thus is enormously different from classical Latin in syntax, mechanics, and vocabulary. Thus, he will need to learn not only the classical structure and vocabulary of Latin but also the myriad ways in which ecclesiastical Latin departs from them. This is a task far more easily said than done. …

    … the actual word order within … any sentence depends upon the relative importance in the sentence's context of giver, recipient, and thing given, the rule being that the last word in a sentence normally is the most important one, the next most important being the first word, with subsequent words before the last one being of progressively less importance. (That is, while it is certainly true that Latin is at root a synthetic language, in the terminology of linguistics, it is not one where word order counts for nothing. Quite the contrary.) This rule of classical Latin and a great many other rules go out the window when one is talking about ecclesiastical Latin, however. Or to be tediously accurate, sometimes it goes out the window and sometimes it doesn't. That is the crux of the problem it presents to the student of classical Latin. …

    … The finest Latin scholar I ever knew, a long dead former college teacher of mine, told me that since he had studied ecclesiastical Latin for only four years, he never trusted his own translations of Church docuмents. (The point is that he could read Cicero, Caesar, Tacitus, Virgil, Horace, Catullus, and even Ovid as fluently as most commenters here could read a third-grade primer.) Of course, s2srea won't be looking to cross swords with docuмentary scholars, but if he studies only classical Latin, he will frequently find himself wondering why the Missal's word choices and constructions seem so odd, if not plain dumb.


    You can safely overlook all the chatter about styles of pronunciation. It is irrelevant to your own goal: learning ecclesiastical Latin.

    Offline claudel

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #9 on: September 25, 2013, 03:56:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    Considering that Ecclesiastical Latin stems from the Classical language it doesn't seem contradictory to start with the latter, although I have heard (I cannot confirm this to be true or not) that the Classical language is harder to learn.


    Ecclesiastical Latin is far harder to learn. Classical Latin is a dead language. All of its structures and conventions are known, and they will never change again. Ecclesiastical Latin is anything but dead, however, and like any other living language it has changed in more ways than I am qualified to count since the death of vernacular Latin, which was already several centuries into its "late" phase by Justinian's time, when Greek supersession of Latin as the empire's official language was beginning.

    Offline s2srea

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #10 on: September 25, 2013, 04:14:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: claudel

    It's very different. But why haven't you referred to your own thread from this past June (Latin/General Discussion)? You got a great many responses there, including this one from me (excerpted):


    Thanks Claudel! I forgot about that thread! I brought this one up because I hadn't had the opportunity to look further into the other ideas brought forth by other members, but recently was given access to Rosetta stone, which seems like an easy, and relatively proven way to begin learning a language. Of course it's not Ecclesiastical, so I was hoping for clarification. Thank you again for your advice.


    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Vladimir

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #12 on: September 25, 2013, 10:59:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: claudel
    Quote from: Vladimir
    Considering that Ecclesiastical Latin stems from the Classical language it doesn't seem contradictory to start with the latter, although I have heard (I cannot confirm this to be true or not) that the Classical language is harder to learn.


    Ecclesiastical Latin is far harder to learn. Classical Latin is a dead language. All of its structures and conventions are known, and they will never change again. Ecclesiastical Latin is anything but dead, however, and like any other living language it has changed in more ways than I am qualified to count since the death of vernacular Latin, which was already several centuries into its "late" phase by Justinian's time, when Greek supersession of Latin as the empire's official language was beginning.


    Thank you for the clarification.




    Offline poche

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    How different is Ecclesiastical Latin from Classical Latin?
    « Reply #13 on: September 26, 2013, 05:11:57 AM »
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  • I think that Classical Latin was used in the "Passion of the Christ" and I was able to understand it. What is more I have a friend who only speaks Spanish. He watched it with me and at teh end he asked, "Was that a dialect of Spanish they were speaking for part of the movie?"