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Author Topic: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?  (Read 6965 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
« Reply #195 on: October 03, 2022, 06:58:26 PM »
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  • https://archive.org/details/sthomaquinatissu03thom/page/448/mode/2up

    As suspected, there's absolutely nothing along the lines of what is claimed, that Christ gave "all believing Christians warrant to adjure the spirit of evil."  [What does "the spirit of evil" mean here?  Is that the same thing as an evil spirit?  This author uses language very loosely.  St. Thomas speaks of "demons" and not some vague "spirit of evil" as described by NewAdvent].

    St. Thomas is merely asking where it is permitted to adjure demons period (and also men and also irrational creatures).

    He first asks whether it is permitted to adjure other men.  Here he makes the familiar distinction, using a slightly different word, "deprecatory" vs. "compulsory" ("of compulsion").  He states that it is permitted a superior to do use the compulsory (called by St. Alphonsus "imperative"), but otherwise it can only be deprecatory.  Adjuration is an interesting question, with St. Thomas likening it to imposing an oath on someone else.  Normally, an inferior is required to submit to a superior anyway, so I imagine that using the name of God somehow makes it more solemn?  Does it render the obligation a mortal sin when adding the name of God into it?  Neither St. Thomas or St. Alphonsus really delve into the matter, and this is just an aside.

    So, I'll come back to the second question, the one under consideration here, about whether it is permitted to adjure demons, but what's interesting is in the third question, whether it's permitted/possible to adjure irrational creatures, St. Alphonsus disagree with St. Thomas.  St. Thomas says yes, while St. Alphonsus says no.  But that's not important here.

    With regard to whether it is permitted to adjure demons, he begins with some objections, as per his usual approach, and then addresses them.  1) Origen says no, since it's a Jєωιѕн custom but not a power granted by Our Lord.  2) If it's permitted for us to adjure demons, then it would be permitted also for necromancers to apply various incantations to do the same.  3) In adjuring, you're establishing some association with the adjured, and it is not permitted to associate with demons.  These seem like pretty weak objections, softballs for St. Thomas to knock out of the park.

    So in response, he cites the Gospel of St. Mark where Our Lord says that "they shall cast out demons in My Name."  And St. Thomas says that casting demons out is a form of adjuration (this will come into play later).

    He says that it's permitted to adjure them out of compulsion, but not formulated as a request, since making a request would in fact be a problem according to objection 3, where you're establishing a relationship or association with them.  But he says that compulsory adjuration is permitted, since demons are enemies.  He'll also later say that even with compulsory adjuration, it's permitted to thwart their attacks, but not to get them to do other things, and not to learn things from them.

    So compulsory adjuration is permitted against demons and only to repel their attacks, and not to obtains various benefits or knowledge from them (except an occasional rare case of a saint who's inspired to do something for the glory of God).

    So, responding to the objections --
    1) Origen was speaking about getting the demons to provide benefits to them, and not about repelling them.
    2) Same thing goes for the necromancers with their incantations; that's forbidden because it's intended to obtain benefits/favors from the demons.
    3) Repelling demons is not the same thing as forming a bond or relationship with them somehow.

    AT NO POINT does St. Thomas discuss who can adjure demons, with what authority, and nowhere does he discuss the difference between solemn adjurations (by ministers using approved rites) and private ones.  He is simply dealing with the question of whether it's permitted IN PRINCIPLE to cast out demons (and how, i.e. compulsion to repel attacks but not requests for assistance).  There's absolutely nothing there along the lines of what NewAdvent had claimed, that he says that Christ gave "all believing Christians warrant to adjure the spirit of evil".

    Here's an English translation (in addition to the Latin above) --
    https://www.ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.SS_Q90_A2.html

    He doesn't even explicitly state that someone must be a Christian to adjure demons in the name of God or of Christ, even though that should be obvious.  He's simply talking about whether it's permitted in general or in principle.

    What neither Doctor says is whether it is POSSIBLE to adjure demons to do something.  They both agree that it's gravely illicit, but they don't discuss whether invoking the name of the Lord could compel them to do other things besides stop afflicting someone.  They SEEM to imply that the power given to the Church was simply to get rid of them, but never explicitly say so.  At one point, St. Thomas does say that the demons are subject to God's authority, and then implies that God communicated not all of His authority over demons, but just the ability to cast them out.  That is also where the former dispute in St. Alphonsus comes into play, i.e. whether in asking the demons questions, etc., you're really acting within the confines of your actual authority or making more of a request (as the one author held who stated that it was a mortal sin to ask demons questions other than what's directly related to expelling them).

    So it seems that the Church does not have authority over demons categorically but just vis-a-vis their expulsion.

    AND, and this is crucial for us here, when you do NOT have authority to make a demand, the adjuration takes on the form of a request, which is grave sin and can be extremely dangerous.  And that is why if there's any doubt whatsoever about whether we have the authority to adjure demons, it must be avoided, because it can backfire and result in retaliation.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #196 on: October 03, 2022, 07:16:27 PM »
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  • We have to remember, conversely, that when Our Lord applied the fruits of his Redemption (redeeming us or ransoming us from the power of the devil), applying this Redemption to us by virtue of our Baptism, the devil / demons no longer have any authority over us.  We are subject to Our Lord, and of course the devil/demons are also.  As Catholic writers indicate, they have no power over us other than what we let them have, by our free will, and in terms of what God will or will not allow them to do, for our good.

    So this notion implied by Ripperger that they somehow gain power over us is a bit problematic.  They might get power over us or other Catholics only to the extent that we allow them to have it, to the extent that we invite them in.  So let's say that I have authority over my wife and my children, but my wife or my children freely allow these demons to have some power or influence over them.  Can I command these demons to relinquish that power by virtue of my authority over my wife and children?  I can command those under my authority, but at the end of the day, I cannot really command their free will, nor do I have authority over the demons.  Not even God commands people's free will.  Is this why Exorcisms are not automatic?  Otherwise, by all rights, one would think that they should be.  But sometimes they drag out for a long time, and in some cases they are ultimately unsuccessful?  Why is that?  As far as I can gather, this can only be because the one under the control or influence of the devil does not ultimately wish to be liberated, and if the person invites them in, by virtue of their free will, if even God does not violate free will, how can the Church countermand this free will?  So if even the power of the Church cannot expel demons in every case (due to the free will of the afflicted), how much less efficacious would be our own attempts to liberate these afflicted.

    And, then, why is it that Our Lord said that certain types of demons can only be cast out by prayer and fasting, vs. the simple exertion of authority?  Our Lord also said that lack of faith on the part of the one invoking the authority (the Exorcist) can also prevent the Exorcism from being efficacious.  So there's a mysterious interplay between 1) the authority of the Exorcist, 2) the faith of the Exorcist, 3) the free will of the obsessed/possessed, and 4) prayer/fasting.  Of course, Our Lord had total control and power, so that no demon could resist His commands, even if the possessed did not will to be liberated, but then I imagine in the normal economy, the Lord would simply WILL not to intervene if the obsessed/possessed did not will to be liberated.  And there's that mysterious passage where the demons request to be sent over into a herd of pigs, and for some reason Our Lord complied with the request.  I wonder why.  Did He have some compassion for them, despite their evil?  Or was it to show how many there were and how evil and destructive they were?  To show that they were unclean by wanting to go into unclean animals?  Why did the demons/devils want to go into the swine?  Just so they could find something to kill or to destroy?  Of course, after this incident, the people of the two wanted Our Lord never to come back.  Were they terrified?  Or were they just upset that their swine herd (a source of their ability to survive) was wiped out?  Lots of mysteries here.


    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #197 on: October 03, 2022, 07:32:38 PM »
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  • Well I had a long reply typed out and when I went to post it I went to a screen that said I do not have permission to post on this forum and I have to register an account.

    So I logged out and logged back in and I don't know what happened.

    Anyhow,
    I don't know what to say. Everyone wants pre-vatican 2 sources. The photo I posted of the preface on the copy of the long form St Michael prayer stated that the laity could pray it in private. At the end of the prayer there's an imprimatur.

    Both of Ripperger's books in question have an imprimatur. He says we can adjure demons in private.

    The Catholic encyclopedia article has an Imprimatur. It states all laity may adjure privately.

    Two of three bishops, pre VII. Three bishops and a priest that studied theology. All probably have degrees in theology.

    Your conclusion doesn't have an Imprimatur. Neither does my opinion.

    I dunno. My understanding is that an Imprimatur is a traditional means of implying a work is free of error.

    Which way am I supposed to lean as a Catholic ?
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #198 on: October 03, 2022, 10:08:13 PM »
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  • I responded on the other thread.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #199 on: October 04, 2022, 01:12:31 PM »
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  • Well I had a long reply typed out and when I went to post it I went to a screen that said I do not have permission to post on this forum and I have to register an account.

    So I logged out and logged back in and I don't know what happened.

    Holy Angels, we've all had that happen -- there is some kind of time limit.
     Unless the reply is short, it's best to write it on Word or WP and then cut-and-paste it in the reply box.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary