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Author Topic: Ballet modesty  (Read 10596 times)

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Offline MariaCatherine

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Ballet modesty
« on: August 17, 2015, 10:09:56 PM »
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  • I don't understand how a faithful Catholic can be a ballet lover at the same time. I would like to understand this. The confusion began when I read Windswept House, in which a strong traditionalist wife and mother is also a ballet dancer and runs a ballet school.

    I know that classical ballet has a kind of purity of line, like painting or drawing, that probably goes a long way to dispel any of the immodesty that's apparent in the costumes and movements.  

    And I know that when ballet was invented costumes were far more modest. But they've always been far less modest than what was considered decent. How is it possible to overlook the immodesty? I'd like to understand this.

    (In the subject line I typed Ballet / modesty, but the forward slash didn't go through.)
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?


    Offline Matto

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #1 on: August 17, 2015, 10:17:39 PM »
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  • Ballet is similar to figure skating. Yes, in theory it could be modest, but in practice it is usually sinfully immodest.
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    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #2 on: August 17, 2015, 10:28:10 PM »
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  • I wouldn't be at all confused if it wasn't for that character in Windswept House, who is in every other way an ideal traditionalist Catholic, as well as my total trust in Fr. Martin as a holy priest.
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?

    Offline shin

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 11:24:53 PM »
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  • Ballet and modesty, never the twain shall meet...

    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #4 on: August 18, 2015, 09:39:52 AM »
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  • Someone has downthumbed every response here; I'm guessing it's because one of their kids does ballet.


    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #5 on: August 18, 2015, 10:22:25 AM »
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  • Even without Fr. Martin's seeming approval, or at least, lack of disapproval, of ballet, this character in his book was based on a real person. So if the downvotes in this thread are from someone who thinks of Fr. Martin as a modernist con man or something, this naysayer still doesn't answer my question. I wish he would.

    I will allow that classically trained ballet dancers' bodies are formed in such an elegant way that it's impossible for me to imagine them in any kind of vulgar way. But there's a difference between immodesty and vulgarity. If someone has a child in ballet class I wouldn't think that would be wrong at all, as long as the classes are segregated by sex, and the parents don't intend their children to perform in public in the usual kind of immodest costumes. I can easily see this kind of ballet training as beneficial.

    I would go so far as to say the well-trained (female) ballerina's body is almost ethereally sexless and almost angelic. Except for the costumes, it reminds me of a lot of religious art - very physically graceful. Ballerinas have a hard time dancing jazz, and that's a good thing.

    But in my opinion the male ballet dancers - even though many of them are sodomites - still retain a great deal of their masculinity and are really dangerous to female eyes. Maybe with decent costumes; but then a lot of the ethereal quality would be lost, because it seems to reside completely in the bodies.
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #6 on: August 18, 2015, 10:33:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: MariaCatherine
    the male ballet dancers - even though many of them are sodomites


    Ya think?

     :roll-laugh1:

    I'd be surprised if ANY are not.

    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #7 on: August 18, 2015, 11:59:37 AM »
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  • Not all of them are sodomites, but that's beside the point. Except I suppose I could have added that immodestly costumed male ballet dancers would be an occasion of sin not only to females, and vice versa.

    Another obvious benefit of classical ballet training is the exposure to good music.

    Another thought about that character in Windswept House: It wasn't her ballet career that made her an exemplary Catholic, and she gave up performing when she decided it was God's will that she only teach.
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 01:12:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: MariaCatherine
    the male ballet dancers - even though many of them are sodomites


    Ya think?

     :roll-laugh1:

    I'd be surprised if ANY are not.


    Judging from the downthumb, there must be a male ballet dancer among us.

    Offline Marlelar

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 01:52:59 PM »
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  • I know of a good family that runs a classical ballet school.  Mom and Dad were both classically trained in Europe.  When the Dad dances he wears a loose pant, but I'm sure "professional" dancers with a ballet company would not have that option.  They do strive to keep the girls as covered as possible, but they do have to move so leotards are necessary.  The girls wear skirts at least.

    Generally speaking I would say that ballet costumes are usually immodest, but of course the dance is designed to show off the body so that's no surprise.  Ballet training is useful as it teaches a girl how to move gracefully, but ballet performance is something else, not a fan myself.

    I personally prefer folk dances, the costumes are beautiful and there is so much skill involved in learning them.

    Offline Marlelar

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #10 on: August 18, 2015, 02:09:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: MariaCatherine
    the male ballet dancers - even though many of them are sodomites


    Ya think?

     :roll-laugh1:

    I'd be surprised if ANY are not.


    Judging from the downthumb, there must be a male ballet dancer among us.


    If it wasn't for the modesty issue I would recommend that more men/boys take it up as a "sport".  It teaches body control, develops muscles, and takes a lot of discipline.  If we had more "real" men it would certainly improve the public image of ballet.  

    I don't think dance should be a career, but a sport that trains a person's body to be strong, flexible, and disciplined;  football,  baseball, soccer, etc should not be careers either!  They are games and as such should be played on Saturday morning at the local park by all the men and boys who care to gather together to do so.  I consider "professional" and "sport" to be an oxymoron.


    Offline shin

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #11 on: August 18, 2015, 03:47:44 PM »
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  • There's the immodesty issue..
    There's the dance issue..
    There's the it's not Christian it's of the world issue..
    How many more?

    Quote

    I would go so far as to say the well-trained (female) ballerina's body is almost ethereally sexless and almost angelic. Except for the costumes, it reminds me of a lot of religious art - very physically graceful.


    You've been bamboozled. This is far from reality.




    Abbe Henri-Louis Hulot - Balls and Dancing Parties Condemned by the Scriptures, Holy Fathers, Holy Councils and Most Reknowned Theologians of the Church


    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #12 on: August 18, 2015, 06:50:07 PM »
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  • I do remember that a parish priest at Fatima put a stop to the dances that Lucia used to help organize, and of course she obeyed him without question.
    What return shall I make to the Lord for all the things that He hath given unto me?

    Offline Cera

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #13 on: August 18, 2015, 07:25:30 PM »
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  • The typical male/ female dance is probably much worse than the typical ballet. Ballet is an art form. Someone would have to have a wicked mind to project sɛҳuąƖity onto most of what is seen in ballet.
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    Offline shin

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    Ballet modesty
    « Reply #14 on: August 18, 2015, 07:49:11 PM »
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  • That is just an aesthetic conceit Cera.

    There is such an thing as immoral art, and complicated immoral art that follows rules of aesthetics and form. Then people say it is excusable.

    It's simply the upper class artistic version of a pole dance. Form fitting clothing is no better than nudity. The mini-skirt is wrong, but the tutu is right?

    Using rules of aesthetics to show off the body is no better than showing off the body rudely. It's simply the devil at work on the proud.

    It's an upper class conceit that makes sin into genteel entertainment.


    'We recall that a dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat, which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows, and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knee. Furthermore, dresses of transparent material are improper. Let parents keep their daughters away from public gymnastic games and contests; but, if their daughters are compelled to attend such exhibitions, let them see to it that they are fully and modestly dressed. Let them never permit their daughters to don immodest garb.'

    The Sacred Congregation of the Council (by the mandate of Pope Pius XI), January 12, 1930 A.D.



    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-