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Author Topic: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?  (Read 34169 times)

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Offline HolyAngels

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Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
« Reply #165 on: October 01, 2022, 10:23:26 AM »
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  • Here is the gist of it. Ripperger ,on what St Alphonsus said....

    "In other words, the fact that every individual has a right to adjure in relationship to himself and those over whom he has authority does not translate into having authority over all demons afficting all people". 

    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #166 on: October 01, 2022, 11:07:03 AM »
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  • Found it.  Passage in St. Alponsus condemns Ripperger's promotion of lay exorcism.

    I'll lay it out here shortly.


    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #167 on: October 01, 2022, 11:20:18 AM »
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  • Found it.  Passage in St. Alponsus condemns Ripperger's promotion of lay exorcism.

    I'll lay it out here shortly.
    Good deal. Make sure to cite Ripperger promoting Solemn Exorcism by the Laity as well.
    :popcorn:
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #168 on: October 01, 2022, 12:04:52 PM »
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  • Good deal. Make sure to cite Ripperger promoting Solemn Exorcism by the Laity as well.
    :popcorn:
    ^ Down voted ? Lol
     
    Hey, keeping it honest can't hurt can it ? 
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #169 on: October 01, 2022, 12:22:27 PM »
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  • https://books.google.com/books?id=MgBGAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Starts on Page 173, "APPENDIX -- DE ADJURATIONE" (Appendix by Adjuration)

    St. Alphonsus defines adjuration as the invocation of God, of holy things, or of the saints in order to get someone to either do or not do something.

    He then makes two distinctions with regard to adjuration.

    1) Solemn vs. Private, the former being done by ministers duly appointed by the Church and using the Rites / ceremonies established by the Church, and Private being anything else.

    2) Deprecatory vs. Imperative, the first being in the form of a request, and the second a command.  He states that for an Adjuration to be able to be "imperative" (in the form of a command), it can only be issued by a superior to those subject to him or by exorcists to demons (as exorcists have authority over demons).

    At that point, St. Alphonsus goes into some requirements, i.e. you can't adjure for something bad ("I adjure you to [commit this sin].") or adjure for something to which you have no right in justice ("I adjure you to give me your wallet." -- and that would presumably apply even if you're in a position of authority over someone, but he doesn't go into it).

    But here's where Father Ripperger failed to actually read the text, and he fails on BOTH conditions.  See paragraph V (5).

    "With regard to the adjuration of demons, two things must must here be well noted.  1) That the adjuration must be "imperative" (see above, in the form of a command) and not deprecatory (deprecative)."  [I'll come back to point 2 ... which Ripperger also violates.]

    So, the conclusion is a very straightforward syllogism between two points above.
    1) Imperative Adjurations can only be made by superiors to their subjects and by EXORCISTS TO DEMONS.
    2) Adjurations to Demons should only be IMPERATIVE adjurations and not deprecatory (deprecative).

    ERGO, QED, Those who are not Exorcists (i.e. have no authority over demons) should NOT be adjuring demons.  Period.  Case closed.  End of story.

    That is why there's no Catholic Tradition of deliverance prayers for the laity along the lines of what Ripperger publishes in his books.

    And, according to St. Alphonsus, deprecatory (deprecative) adjuration should not be used with regard to demons.  "Please, Mr. Demon, in the name of God, leave."  But then, commands, such as "I command you to leave ..." (which Ripperger has in his books), they should only be performed in the case of demons BY EXORCISTS (as they have authority over demons from the Church).

    Now, Ripperger argues that you can do this if you have authority over those AFFLICTED by demons, i.e. if my wife or my children are afflicted by demons, I can command the demons.  That is completely wrong.  I can only issue imperative (command) adjurations to those over whom I have authority.  I can imperatively adjure my wife and my children, but cannot imperatively adjure the demons who are afflicting them.  I could, theoretically, adjure them in a deprecative manner (appealing to the authority), but St. Alphonsus states that deprecatory/deprecative adjuration should not be done vis-a-vis demons.

    This is the source of Ripperger's blunder.  He also blurs and blends in and confounds the solemn vs. private distinction, but that has nothing to do with this.

    "Mr. Demon, I have authority over my children, so I command you to leave them alone."  bzzzzt.  We can appeal to God to enforce our authority, but as we have no authority over the DEMONS THEMSELVES, we cannot imperatively adjure them to leave them alone.  God can enforce this authority.  We cannot.

    Nor can we issue deprecative adjurations, "Mr. Demon, pretty please, leave my kids alone."

    Both of these have the potential for the Demons to retaliate against the issuer of these adjurations ... out of spite.

    Now we move onto the second condition laid out by St. Alphonsus for adjuring demons, that these imperative adjurations be issued ONLY for the sake of removing the damage / harm and vexation of the oppressed and "not out of vanity or curiosity".  So only those inquiries can be made of the demons which pertain specifically to extirpating the demon.  Exorcists should not command the demon out of vanity, "I command you to jump up and down." (i.e. just to show off his authority) or out of curiosity, "So, I command you to tell me what your plans are for attacking the Church."  And then St. Alphonsus states (as common teaching) that an exorcist who has "many useless conversations with the one obsessed by a demon cannot be excused of grave sin", i.e. conversations that do not pertain directly to the extirpation of the demon and freeing the obsessed.

    St. Alphonsus then discusses some opinions (in contrast with having "many useless conversations") about whether it's a grave sin to ask even one or two questions out of curiosity.  He cites one theologian who says that it is, and his reason is that in such a situation, the exorcist appears to be adjuring the demon in a deprecative manner (vs. imperatively).  But St. Alphonsus disagrees, saying that it's more probably only a venial sin if it's clear that the exorcist is asking in an imperative manner.

    BUT NOTE WELL:  In both cases, he's saying that to adjure demons in a deprecative mode or manner would constitute mortal sin.  So recall when I said that St. Alphonsus says demons can only be adjured in an imperative mode, he amplifies that here by asserting that to adjure demons in a deprecative/deprecatory manner would be a grave sin.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #170 on: October 01, 2022, 12:35:53 PM »
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  • Good deal. Make sure to cite Ripperger promoting Solemn Exorcism by the Laity as well.
    :popcorn:

    Read my latest post.  Your dishonestly manifests itself more with each post.  No one ever claimed that Ripperger was advocating solemn exorcism.  That's actually central to Ripperger's blunder, however, which you accept by way of begging the question.

    This has nothing to do with the solemn vs. private distinction, and everything to do with imperative vs. deprecatory adjuration of demons.

    St. Alphonsus clearly states that 1) it's grave sin to use a deprecatory adjuration with a demon (even for an exorcist) and that 2) only exorcists (by virtue of having authority over demons) can issue imperative adjurations (i.e. command adjurations) to demons.

    Case closed.  Ripperger blunders and misreads St. Alphonsus, and then uses that misreading to justify his novelty of publishing deliverance prayers for that laity that include imperative adjuration of demons.  This is why there's no Tradition whatsoever of lay people engaging demons in this manner.  Laity have no authority over demons to issue imperative adjurations, and it's grave sin to issue deprecatory adjurations to demons.

    It's also grave sin for the Exorcist to interrogate the demons other than specifically about things which are necessary to know in order to extirpate the demon from the obsessed.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #171 on: October 01, 2022, 12:37:29 PM »
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  • ^ Down voted ? Lol
     
    Hey, keeping it honest can't hurt can it ?

    More dishonesty, implying that I downvoted you.  I had not returned to this thread nor seen your posts until I had finished my research of St. Alphonsus and posted it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #172 on: October 01, 2022, 12:38:21 PM »
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  • You can go choke on your popcorn, as you have been promoting aberrant and sinful behavior by shilling for Ripperger.


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #173 on: October 01, 2022, 01:11:12 PM »
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  • Firstly, I find it very logical. It clearly shows the boundaries wherein the devil and his demons can act, and how the authority structure is important on how to fight the diabolic. It is good to have laid out the traditional structure of the family, to show a)the right order within the family unit and b) how that will further elucidate the daily means of spiritual combat.

    As for Father Ripperger, there are indeed problem areas. One major one is his association with the Novus Ordo Mass. He could not criticize it while he was in the FSSP and that lack carries into his present ministry. The increased lack of efficacy of exorcisms has to be tied in with ongoing celebration of the Bogus NoNo by exorcists. Despite the solid philosophy and theology in the texts Dominion and the one on mental health, how one can logically remain in the conciliar church is a bit baffling. That the ecclesial structure of authority was destroyed in Vatican II would explain if nothing else how the demonic has been given the power over society and the structures of the conciliar church.

    I take the good from Father R's texts, and through judicious discernment - as I have received formal philosophical and theological education - question the remainder to see if it be ill or no.:cowboy:
    Bogus Nono- I love it

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #174 on: October 01, 2022, 02:17:40 PM »
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  • Good deal. Make sure to cite Ripperger promoting Solemn Exorcism by the Laity as well.
    :popcorn:
    We also are still waiting for anything close to that.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #175 on: October 01, 2022, 02:20:23 PM »
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  • Has anyone noticed that downvotes for Lad lead to a blank page?
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #176 on: October 01, 2022, 02:32:08 PM »
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  • Has anyone noticed that downvotes for Lad lead to a blank page?
    I don't know how to check that yet.
    Fwiw, since I've accuмulated enough posts to have the privilege of using the vote feature, I've not downvoted any posts. ( Unless I did it unintentionally while scrolling on my phone... I don't think I have done that though) I've up voted a few.

    I don't plan to down vote anyone. I'd rather just voice my disagreement.

    Anyhow, I have a question for all. Is the short form St Michael prayer a deprecative prayer ?
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #177 on: October 01, 2022, 02:44:58 PM »
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  • Has anyone noticed that downvotes for Lad lead to a blank page?
    Yeah, that's odd
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #178 on: October 01, 2022, 03:13:41 PM »
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  • We also are still waiting for anything close to that.

    Cera, have you said this prayer?

    Deliverance Prayers: For Use by the Laity

    Page 25


    Quote
    Spirit of N., I bind you in the Name of Jesus, by the power of the most Precious Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ and by the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, St. Michael the Archangel, the blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul and all of the saints, and I command you to leave N. (Name of person or object) and go to the foot of the Holy Cross to receive your sentence, in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline PAT317

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #179 on: October 01, 2022, 03:24:04 PM »
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  • Has anyone noticed that downvotes for Lad lead to a blank page?

    Yeah, that's odd

    Ladislaus' downvote score hasn't changed from -5066 for at least 3 weeks.