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Author Topic: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?  (Read 14123 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
« Reply #105 on: September 28, 2022, 10:04:22 PM »
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  • This is a problem I've discovered with Vatican 2 types like Fr. Ripperger. You object to them that their novel teachings and practices are not traditional, and they respond with quotes from Scripture. When we say something is not traditional, it means that it was not done or practiced before Vatican II, or in most of the history of the Church. So, to counter a charge that something is not traditional, what needs to be produced is some evidence that it was done in the past. Thus, if Fr. Ripperger wants to claim that binding prayers are traditional, he needs to produce, for example, a 19th-century book of binding or deliverance prayers, or examples of such prayers in Catholic prayer books before Vatican II.

    Instead, he twists some passages from Scripture to support his aberrant practices and claims that is tradition.

    Having said that, the arguments he brings forward from Scripture in support of this "binding" nonsense are really bizarre. Let's look at his proofs one at a time.


    The Archangel St. Raphael is not some lay person reading his book. Just because the Archangel St. Raphael can do something, it doesn't follow that therefore Aunt Tillie who just bought Fr. Ripperger's book on Amazon can do the same thing. :laugh1:


    This is a parable. It isn't something to take literally. I believe the "strong man" in this parable is traditionally interpreted to be Our Lord Himself, not the aforementioned Aunt Tillie. :facepalm: If we're going to start drawing all kinds of conclusions from parables, does this mean it's okay to steal because Our Lord praised the stealing of the unjust steward?



    A mysterious passage in the Apocalypse proves nothing. And this is Christ binding the demon, not Aunt Tillie. :facepalm:



    Where? In exorcism ceremonies? The ones done by priests, with the permission of their ordinary? You mean those ceremonies?

    Spot on ... and yet I see that one of the Fr. Ripperger zealots downthumbed this post.  There's absolutely nothing incorrect in any of what you've written here.

    Thus far, with all the emoting on behalf of Father Ripperger, not a single pre-Vatican II precedent for this approach has been cited by his partisans.

    It is absolutely unnecessary, as God is in absolute control of demons.  And He has made Our Lady the Terror of Demons.  Between appealing to God, to Our Lord, and Our Lady, there is absolutely no need for this junk whatsoever.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #106 on: September 28, 2022, 10:05:28 PM »
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  • BTW, no one is simply trying to be a "detractor" of Father Ripperger.  I generally like him and have supported him, but something has always struck me as a bit off with regard to his demonology approach.

    1) his implication that demons are responsible for every sin and every evil (even for hiccups?).  Many sins are simply the result of our own choices and our own weakess, combined with temptations from the world.  We don't have to blame some generational spriit introduced by our great-great-grandparents for our own sins and failings.  Father even speaks about how demons cause us financial problems ... rather than perhaps our own poor decisions.  Even if they did, it's only because God permits it, and He has a higher purpose for whatever financial problems we face.

    2) this excessive detail about specific demons that do specific things, his telling people to appeal to Our Lady of Sorrows to discover which demons are afflicting us, suggesting that if we address them by name, then somehow our prayers our more "powerful" ... as if we can't simply ask Our Lady to handle ANY such demons for us, whatever they might be.  This smacks a bit of superstition.

    3) mention of how he tries to interrogate demons during exorcisms (which I always thought had been forbidden)

    All of this leads to a very unhealthy curiosity about and engagement with demonic forces that is incredibly dangerous that could actually lure people into engaging with these forces.  Dimond Brothers make some good points about why the demons do things like hauntings and poltergeist types of activities.  It's because they're luring people in to attempt to engage with the demonic spirit, which then in turn opens the door for the demons to inject themselves more directly into their lives.

    It just takes one small mis-step in citing these deliverance prayers, where you're directly addressing demons, to slip up and invite them in to more direct engagement.

    We go to God, Our Lord, Our Blessed Mother, St. Michael and our Guardian Angels.

    Oh, by the way, speaking of our authority over our wives and our children.  I have actually leverged this authority in prayer while addressing my guardian angel and the guardian angels of my wife and my children.  I "command" / "bid" THEM by the authority I have over them to keep the demonic forces away.  I bid my guardian angel to work with the others to remind them of my authority, which is the authority of God, and to enforce that authority against the demons.  THIS is a correct leveraging of authority, since the angels DO in fact recognize that our authority is God's and will infallibly obey such commands, not because of ourselves, but because of God's authority that He has communicated to us.  Meanwhile, the entire reason that Satan and the other devils are demand is because they REFUSED to submit to God.  So by themselves, they're not particularly inclined to respect the God-given auhority we have over our wives and chldren.  It's only because God FORCES them to obey that they obey at all.  And so we need to ask God and Our Lady and the angels to enforce this authority.

    We see even in exorcisms where the Church's authority is being applied that the demons do not always respond, and at least do not respond immediately.  Exorcisms often drag on for long periods of time.  Otherwise, why wouldn't they obey immediately?  So if they do not comply with the Church's very autority, why would they comply with my lesser authority over my wife and my children.  Even in exorcisms, their immediate response might be to escalate the situation and increase the attacks.  As an exorcist, Father Ripperger really should know that.  There's the story where Our Lord's disciples could not cast out demons, despite attempting to exorcise them in His Name.  Our Lord attributed this to 1) lack of faith and 2) that some types of demons (an interesting question) can only be cast out through fasting.  Why is that if just a simple exertion of authority suffices?  We could add fasting to our prayers to Our Lord and Our Lady in this regard.

    There's just way too much that's problematic with Father Ripperger's approach.  I'd prefer to speak to my Guardian Angel, to my family's Guardian Angelts, to St. Michael, and above all to Our Blessed Mother, the Terror of Demons ... than to be constantly thinking about and talking to demons.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #107 on: September 28, 2022, 10:29:19 PM »
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  • Let's be clear.  Father Ripperger has become famous and a bit of a celebrity almost entirely do to his approach to demonology.  People are by nature curious and have itchy ears, and this type of sensationalistic stuff attracts an audience.  Were it not for this aspect of Father Ripperger, he would be just another Motu-Trad type of traditionalist with about a dozen followers on social media.

    For the same reason that people watch the secular "Ghost Hunters" types of TV shows, Catholics find the equivalent in following and tuning in to Father Ripperger, who takes a lot of the same attitudes and a lot of the Prot attitudes and attempts to put a veneer not only of Catholicism but of Traditional Catholicism on top of it to justify it and make it seem acceptable.

    I await any citations from before Vatican II, from Tradition, from the Fathers and the saints ... that backs up Father Ripperger's approach.  If such are produced, I'll reconsider my objections, but it's very strange despite generic assertions that all this is consistent with the Fathers, Doctos, and saints ... not a single citation actually backing that up has been produced.  Simply because Father Ripperger offers the Traditional Mass, this does not mean that his approach is ipso facto "Traditional".

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #108 on: September 28, 2022, 10:59:10 PM »
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  • http://www.catholictradition.org/Classics/abandonment10.htm
    Quote
    Not all temptations come from the demon. "Everyone is tempted by his own concupiscence, which draws and seduces him" (James, i, 14), and this evil fire is fanned into flame by the scandals of the perverse and imperfect. The majority of men expose themselves to peril of their own free choice, or they precipitate one another into it. The demon has little more to do than to fold his arms and watch them performing his bad work for him; but he labours unceasingly for the ruin of souls that belong to him no longer.
    ...
    Each [demon], however, has a chain to its neck, and God leads them about as He pleases. Against His good-pleasure, they are powerlessness itself. He allows them no liberty to tempt, or He leaves them some latitude, more or less, as He judges fit, with regard to what persons He pleases, in the manner and for the time that He considers best. So the choice of the temptation, the time, the degree of its violence, and the period of its duration: all are in the hands of God, our Father, our Saviour, our Sanctifier. This surely ought to encourage us. With the assistance of grace, we can prevent many temptations, we can repel the fiercest attacks of the enemy, and we can never fall save by our own full and free consent. The demon may bark at us, threaten us, entice us; but he can only bite those that want to be bitten. But, alas! we have in our free will the awful power of yielding in spite of grace, of neglecting to solicit the help of grace, and even of exposing ourselves to temptation. And this is what should keep us in perpetual self-distrust. In last analysis, therefore, the danger lies in ourselves. We are ourselves the enemy we have most cause to fear.
    ...
    The pious Bishop of Geneva [St. Francis de Sales] addressed St. Jane de Chantal in very similar terms: "... You shouldn't mistake the rustling of the leaves for the rattling of arms. Our enemy is a mighty blusterer. But don't let him frighten you. He has raised many an uproar and many a tumult around the Saints; but for all that, you see how they now occupy the place which he, miserable one, has lost forever. Let us pay no heed, then, to his fanfares, for he can do us no harm. That is why he wishes at least to terrify us, and by this terror to disturb our peace, and by this disturbance to weary us, and by this weariness to make us give up. Let us have no fear but of God, and even of Him only a loving fear. Let us keep the gates securely closed, and the walls of our resolutions in good repair, and then let us live in peace."

    So Traditonal sources encourage us to put our confidence and trust in God, knowing that the demonic forces have only the power over us that God allows.  They speak of how the demons can create a lot of noise and bluster ... but cannot touch us apart from God's will, as of course Our Lord has removed the bond of Satan over us by virtue of our Baptism, but the saints advice that we "pay no heed, then, to [their] fanfares, for [they] can do us no harm."

    But instead, Father Ripperger encourages us to pay meticulous heed to how the devils might be attacking us, which ones, how, etc.  In the one analogy, the demon is likened to a dog on a leash that's barking at us but cannot bite (because he's on God's leash) ... unless we go up to it and start messing with it.  And isn't this precisely the attitude of Father Ripperger?  Hey, let's go up to the barking dog and start trying to confront it.  Isn't THAT when you become susceptible to being bitten?  Instead of paying no attention to the barking by the demon, according to Father Ripperger, we're supposed to listen closely to the barking and attempt to decipher its meaning and intent and see how we can get the dog to quiet down?

    This is all incredibly dangerous, and the Catholic approach should be to ask God, Our Lady, St. Michael, and the saints for their protection, and to remain focused on THEM rather than on the demons.  As per St. Francis de Sales, we retain our peace by simply closing off the gates and turning inward toward God, and ignoring the bluster, the noise, and the barking outside.  We should not, as Father Ripperger counsels, go to the door, start addressing the demons outside, and even potentially open a window or a door for them to get in.

    Father Ripperger's book should be put on the Index and should be avoided by all Catholics.  It pains me to say it, because I generally like Father Ripperger, but his talks and his books are potentially very harmful.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #109 on: September 28, 2022, 11:42:52 PM »
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  • Does he list citations; book and page numbers?

    If he lists St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus, what is the citation? 

    Where is the proof that deliverance prayers have a history of use by the laity?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #110 on: September 28, 2022, 11:46:31 PM »
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  • Does he list citations; book and page numbers?

    If he lists St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus, what is the citation?

    Where is the proof that deliverance prayers have a history of use by the laity?

    I've seen no proof for any of this.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #111 on: September 28, 2022, 11:57:29 PM »
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  • To all, For now just a few quotes from Ripperger.
    "Some assert that the church has only passed down to the laity  deprecatory prayers for their use and not imprecatory prayers. However as we have already seen, Saint Alphonsus and St Thomas show that anyone has a right in private to adjurations, that is, commanding demons to depart or do certain things. Since the right to command the demons comes from the Divine positive law and the natural law, it means that the right to adjure comes from God and it binds on the conscience of the individual that if he detects through a proper discernment process that something is diabolic that he, at least, make use of the adjurations in order to protect his own spiritual life. One thing to note is that all human beings after the Fall have essentially been conscripted to engage in spiritual warfare. This follows from the fact that all human beings after the Fall are immersed in the spiritual battle, and therefore, to refuse to take up certain arms in order to engage that spiritual warfare is a sin of omission and negligence. Obviously, the real question is which arms one is to take up and which arms one should not and when one should apply them and when one should not. We have already seen above that it is the Divine positive law and the natural law that both give one the right as well as set the restrictions"

    Never mind Ripperger's quotation of scripture.

    Where is the quotation of other authorities giving such an explanation?

    Not "he said, she said", but quoting works and page numbers of past authorities expounding on this?

    Not paraphrasing words either, but actually sources?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #112 on: September 29, 2022, 12:39:11 AM »
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  • BTW, no one is simply trying to be a "detractor" of Father Ripperger.  I generally like him and have supported him, but something has always struck me as a bit off with regard to his demonology approach.

    1)/ his implication that demons are responsible for every sin and every evil (even for hiccups?).  Many sins are simply the result of our own choices and our own weakess, combined with temptations from the world.  We don't have to blame some generational spriit introduced by our great-great-grandparents for our own sins and failings.  Father even speaks about how demons cause us financial problems ... rather than perhaps our own poor decisions.  Even if they did, it's only because God permits it, and He has a higher purpose for whatever financial problems we face.

    2) this excessive detail about specific demons that do specific things, his telling people to appeal to Our Lady of Sorrows to discover which demons are afflicting us, suggesting that if we address them by name, then somehow our prayers our more "powerful" ... as if we can't simply ask Our Lady to handle ANY such demons for us, whatever they might be.  This smacks a bit of superstition.

    3) mention of how he tries to interrogate demons during exorcisms (which I always thought had been forbidden)

    All of this leads to a very unhealthy curiosity about and engagement with demonic forces that is incredibly dangerous that could actually lure people into engaging with these forces.  Dimond Brothers make some good points about why the demons do things like hauntings and poltergeist types of activities.  It's because they're luring people in to attempt to engage with the demonic spirit, which then in turn opens the door for the demons to inject themselves more directly into their lives.

    It just takes one small mis-step in citing these deliverance prayers, where you're directly addressing demons, to slip up and invite them in to more direct engagement.

    We go to God, Our Lord, Our Blessed Mother, St. Michael and our Guardian Angels.

    Oh, by the way, speaking of our authority over our wives and our children.  I have actually leverged this authority in prayer while addressing my guardian angel and the guardian angels of my wife and my children.  I "command" / "bid" THEM by the authority I have over them to keep the demonic forces away.  I bid my guardian angel to work with the others to remind them of my authority, which is the authority of God, and to enforce that authority against the demons.  THIS is a correct leveraging of authority, since the angels DO in fact recognize that our authority is God's and will infallibly obey such commands, not because of ourselves, but because of God's authority that He has communicated to us.  Meanwhile, the entire reason that Satan and the other devils are demand is because they REFUSED to submit to God.  So by themselves, they're not particularly inclined to respect the God-given auhority we have over our wives and chldren.  It's only because God FORCES them to obey that they obey at all.  And so we need to ask God and Our Lady and the angels to enforce this authority.

    We see even in exorcisms where the Church's authority is being applied that the demons do not always respond, and at least do not respond immediately.  Exorcisms often drag on for long periods of time.  Otherwise, why wouldn't they obey immediately?  So if they do not comply with the Church's very autority, why would they comply with my lesser authority over my wife and my children.  Even in exorcisms, their immediate response might be to escalate the situation and increase the attacks.  As an exorcist, Father Ripperger really should know that.  There's the story where Our Lord's disciples could not cast out demons, despite attempting to exorcise them in His Name.  Our Lord attributed this to 1) lack of faith and 2) that some types of demons (an interesting question) can only be cast out through fasting.  Why is that if just a simple exertion of authority suffices?  We could add fasting to our prayers to Our Lord and Our Lady in this regard.

    There's just way too much that's problematic with Father Ripperger's approach.  I'd prefer to speak to my Guardian Angel, to my family's Guardian Angelts, to St. Michael, and above all to Our Blessed Mother, the Terror of Demons ... than to be constantly thinking about and talking to demons.
    Laus, you persist in spewing false accusations one after another and even repeating them at times.

    You are either doing it out of ignorance or denial. I'm not using ignorance in a derogatory sense but rather in the sense that you have not read what Fr Ripperger actually says. The part of your post I bolded is an example. He states the opposite in Dominion, giving many examples. And you would be in denial if you have read Dominion and refused to concede your gut feelings are dead wrong.

    Once again you are voicing your opinion of the prayers in question based on your gut feelings and emotions. Fr Ripperger doesn't go by his feelings and emotions. Actually that is one of his criticisms of the NO modernists. He is an orthodox theologian who also happens to be proficient in psychology. His works/writing are conclusions, not opinions. He has spent years researching and reading books he has access to that you and I don't even realize exist.

    As an exorcist he offers catechesis on spiritual warfare that laity aren't used to. And when we hear such it's easy to question it. I have acknowledged more than once on this thread that is certainly understandable. Nevertheless he backs up everything he offers with citations galore. And I cannot keep posting extensive text of his book Dominion without flirting with copyright issues.

    If you want to understand why he concludes what he does, acquire a copy of Dominion. If you have no intention of doing that go ahead and persist in erroneous claims about this priest. I can't control that but honestly, you can save your keystrokes for someone else moving forward because I'm done with it. Frankly, if it's your way or no way, no way is fine with me.

    Pax
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12


    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #113 on: September 29, 2022, 12:49:26 AM »
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  • Does he list citations; book and page numbers?

    If he lists St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus, what is the citation?

    Where is the proof that deliverance prayers have a history of use by the laity?
    Yes, he cites support for everything he concludes. Many pages of Dominion have more space taking up by the citations than his actual text. Here are the first three pages of them in chapter 1 Angelology

    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #114 on: September 29, 2022, 01:45:00 AM »
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  • Never mind Ripperger's quotation of scripture.

    Where is the quotation of other authorities giving such an explanation?

    Not "he said, she said", but quoting works and page numbers of past authorities expounding on this?

    Not paraphrasing words either, but actually sources?
    St Alphonsus : Ripperger cites from Theologia Moralis

    Aquinas : the Summa and Thomae Aquinatis Opera Omnia 

    Many others.

    Page numbers and such are there but often are on previous pages before his conclusion. It will take some time to get the exact page numbers cited as far as the ones specific to the actual Adjuration prayers. As far as quotes from the sources that use the word binding I don't see one yet. I'm just flipping through the chapter on Structure of Authority so far. I can see he's very precise in explaining whom laity have authority to use these prayers for though. Namely ourselves and immediate family. And never publicly in assemblies as some Protestants do.
     
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #115 on: September 29, 2022, 08:16:39 AM »
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  • None of those screenshots has any bearing whatsoever on the question at hand.  He's merely citing St. Thomas explaining that angels and demons are spiritual and immaterial beings.  What does that have to do with the laity performing exorcisms by casting out demons and directly addressing them?


    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #116 on: September 29, 2022, 11:56:30 AM »
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  • None of those screenshots has any bearing whatsoever on the question at hand.  He's merely citing St. Thomas explaining that angels and demons are spiritual and immaterial beings.  What does that have to do with the laity performing exorcisms by casting out demons and directly addressing them?
    It has nothing to do with Laity performing exorcisms. And to assert Fr Ripperger encourages Laity to do so is a blatant lie. You may convince those who happen to check out this thread and have never actually held one of his books in their hands or watched any of his talks on video. But those of us who have actually heard him speak and read what he writes on the topic know better.

    Who do you think you are pleasing with these false accusations ? Our Lord or Satan ?
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #117 on: September 29, 2022, 01:56:04 PM »
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  • I purchased a hardcover copy of Dominion: The Nature of Diabolic Warfare

    I should have it within 3 weeks.

    Seems to be a print on demand title.

    I am particularly interested in going through Chapter 4: Structure of Authority.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #118 on: September 29, 2022, 02:46:54 PM »
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  • Having read Dominion, I continue to work through "The Introduction to the Science of Mental Health." Much to digest but definitely worth it.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #119 on: September 29, 2022, 04:53:08 PM »
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  • I purchased a hardcover copy of Dominion: The Nature of Diabolic Warfare

    I should have it within 3 weeks.

    Seems to be a print on demand title.

    I am particularly interested in going through Chapter 4: Structure of Authority.
    Good deal. I hope you find it informative !
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12