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Author Topic: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?  (Read 14141 times)

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Offline HolyAngels

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Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2022, 07:46:02 AM »
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  • Traditionally the Church treated exorcisms as a confidential matter not in order to protect the exorcist from demons (since the demons already know who is doing the exorcisms in any parish anyway), but to avoid the type of popular sensationalism and superstition that Ripperger appeals to in order to get attention. A lot of people in the conservative wing of the new church are highly superstitious and think demons cause every natural event that is a little weird, and think everyone is possessed by demons (I think they have invented the word "oppressed" by demons now, to avoid that accusation I just mentioned). So when people like this hear a priest (invalidly ordained) going on and on about demons all the time and how many people are possessed, they eat it with a big spoon.

    Traditionally, the Church is always extremely slow to say anyone is possessed by the devil (and I'm not aware of those terms "demonic obsession" or "demonic oppression" being used before Vatican 2, I don't think they're traditional). In fact, the very ceremony of exorcism in the Roman Ritual, a liturgical book, says as much, and says that priests should be very reluctant to believe anyone possessed, and not unless they can either speak many words in a foreign language, reveal hidden or secret information unknown to them, or do things physically impossible. And it implies people should do more than one of those things, or more than once. Ever hear Ripperger tell people this?

    The Catholic idea is to assign natural causes to things. Thus, if you see a devil in your imagination as you pick up a book about devils, that is probably your imagination. If have a nightmare, that is your imagination. That is how people should think, and that is what is taught by the true Catholic mystics and teachers of the spiritual life.
    Yes, Fr Ripperger has explained numerous times actual possession is rare. Less than 1%. And he indeed explains the conditions you list. So yes, people who follow him are told all of that.

    As far as imagining devil's I'm sure there are many who do so. One can become obsessed with worry about them. It's psychological obsession. And it's a crisis that is an opportunity for a demon to attack the person's imagination. And then diabolic obsession is in the equation. Demons can attack us in dreams as well.

    Regarding the term diabolic obsession not used prior to VII, it is because it was previously known as Circuмsession. 

    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12


    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #16 on: September 11, 2022, 07:58:12 AM »
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  • Awesome book. Best book on prayer and it's interconnectedness with spiritual advancement I've ever read. It shows how advancement in the spiritual life or sanctity and advancement in your prayer life coincide, how they're inseparable. Also explains to the reader how to practice mental prayer in different ways at different stages and how to recognize God working in the soul. What is mental prayer?  How do you know when to simplify your mental prayer? How does meditation become contemplation? What is God doing? What do you do? How and why is advancing in the spiritual life of union with Christ and advancing in prayer inseparable or interdependent? This book explains all this and more in a lot of detail especially drawing from the writings of St. John if the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila. Book is 3 or 4 hundred pages. Very exhaustive. Worth it.
    Indeed 

    The preface itself is worth the price of admission. One example..
    "Reading seeks the sweetness of the beatic life, meditation finds it, prayer asks for it, contemplation tastes it."
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12


    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #17 on: September 11, 2022, 08:31:33 AM »
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  • Obsession is indeed a traditional form of diabolical influence discussed in spiritual theology.

    The traditional divisions of diabolical influence in the manuals are: 1) temptations, 2) obsession (interior or exterior), and 3) possession.

    Fr. Antonio Royo Marin, OP summarizes the traditional theology well in his manual Teologia de la Perfeccion Cristiana.

    Mgr. Ribet discussed these three divisions more extensively in his 1883 work La mystique divine. Fr. Pierre Thyrée, SJ was the classic author of demonology, witchcraft and occult extraordinary phenomena, especially his De daemoniacis, 1594.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia article is good: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12315a.htm

    St. Thomas discusses diabolical influence generally in various places, e.g. ST Ia, q. 114; In II Sent., dist. 8, q. 1. There are also many other saints who discuss these matters with more or less depth.

    The 1917 Code was absolutely clear that laity and even unauthorized clergy were forbidden to attempt an exorcism (c. 1151-53).

    There is increasing discussion of "generational spirits" among some exorcists or people interested in this topic. I've never spent time looking into it, and it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the traditional manuals as far as I know (but I don't know much at all in this topic). But what I mentioned above is clearly laid out in the traditional sources.
    Regarding generational spirits, I'm thinking the fall of Adam and Eve and the resulting original sin would be an example. 

    Fr Ripperger goes into it in Dominion  but I've not made it that far yet. It's about a third of the way into the book. It's in the chapter covering Structure of Authority.
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #18 on: September 11, 2022, 08:42:04 AM »
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  • .
     I’d be cautious about getting overly involved in his exorcism prayers.  He wrote and adapted most of them.  I think it’s not good for lay people to be praying other than short spiritual warfare prayers as needed under demonic temptation, or as guided by one’s spiritual advisor.  (One amateur exorcist in the resistance movement is enough!) 
    Well, he is very clear that Laity do not have the authority to pray prayers of exorcism. He's modified some of them into Deliverance prayers and he does strongly encourage people to talk to a spiritual director before they begin praying them.
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #19 on: September 11, 2022, 10:18:56 AM »
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  • Did you experience any sort of demonic retaliation after praying the Auxilium Christianorum prayers. I did 3 times not far apart but they subsided. Then I started praying Servite rosary along with the other daily prayers as required by the Society of the Most Sorrowful Mother, the Doloran Fathers aFr Ripperger is part of. Now I've had them come at me again.

    The worst was one night I was reaching for my copy of Deliverance Prayers For The Laity and I envisioned the most repulsive image of a demon I've ever seen in a painting or otherwise. It didn't frighten me but I immediately made the sign of the cross and it disappeared.....
    This would tell me, not sure why it doesn't tell you, but this would tell me in no uncertain terms that something I'm doing is wrong. If I tied it to Fr. Ripperger as you do, then that would be the immediate end of him for me. 

    Some years ago I listened to a few dozen of his sermons / talks and they were good, but, not sure how I would describe them exactly, maybe simply saying that his are sermons given by an indult priest is the best way to describe what you will hear. But thankfully, I did not experience what you did.

     
    Quote
    Anyhow, his book Dominion has allowed me to figure out what type of demonic influence drives my habitual sins. In my case it's demonic oppression.
    We have zero, I repeat, zero reason to delve into the source of our temptations any deeper than to know the devil is tempting us. This is a curiosity that is not only dangerous to delve into, there is something a bit perverse about it as well. What you describe strikes me, or is likened to him writing about us trying to figure out a particular devil's personality, scary for him to even publish such a thing, even though these days I think most would disagree.

    What we need to know, and *all* that we need to know, is the best methods to avoid temptation so as to not sin. 

    I could go on about the reasons why I stopped listening to him, suffice to say that there is a lot he says that does not need saying, a lot that does not say, and some things he should say that he does not, just the same as many [indult] priests. I used to wonder if the revenue he generates for his order has anything to do with it, but I don't really think that's it. I think he waves both the trad and NO flags - as do all indult priests, and this is what came out in the sermons I heard.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #20 on: September 11, 2022, 11:53:04 AM »
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  • So when people like this hear a priest (invalidly ordained) going on and on about demons all the time and how many people are possessed, they eat it with a big spoon.

    Yes, I've always gotten the impression that Fr. Ripperger exaggerates the extent of diabolical activity, seeing nearly everything bad that happens as being the result of direct diabolical activity.  Sins and character flaws seem to him to be all caused by "generational spirits".  So if you're arrogant, it's because of a certain demon.  If you're prone to impurity or to sloth, that's caused by another set of demons.  Well, a lot of this is just due to Original Sin and the human condition.  Maybe someone is arrogant or impure or slothful ... just because they made sinful choices or some of that could be due to natural temperament, etc.  He even says that people who have "bad luck" financially are under diabolical attack.  Devils don't care about finances.  They're rather see people affluent, since as Our Lord said, it's very difficult for the wealthy to enter the Kingdom of God.  Demons don't cause sinful inclinations, as it were, against someone's will.  They can't.  They can only go so far as to try to induce people into making sinful decisions, but can't cause someone to be lustful or gluttonous or slothful.

    Generally speaking, Holy Water, blessed religious articles, especially St. Benedict's medals, etc. tend to keep the demons away for the most part.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #21 on: September 11, 2022, 12:00:49 PM »
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  • Obsession is indeed a traditional form of diabolical influence discussed in spiritual theology.

    Nobody's denying diabolical influence or activity, just the EXTENT of it.  Traditionally, inclinations toward sinful behavior are attributed to one of THREE sources, the flesh, the devil, and the world.  It's almost as if Father Ripperger ignores the other two causes and seems to imply that it's all caused by the devil.  If someone is addicted to pornography, it's not because his great great great grandfather committed sins of impurity.

    Offline Philothea3

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #22 on: September 11, 2022, 12:21:45 PM »
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  • I was looking for videos one evening and come across a Fr Ripperger one on sacramentals. So I began watching others and he's an excellent catechist  imo.

    I bought his book Deliverance Prayers For The Laity and begin praying the Auxilium Christian prayers. Soon after I understood why he strongly suggested one speak with a priest before praying the prayers. Demons don't like them.

    I also got a copy of his latest book Dominion. It far exceeds the other books I've read on angels, demons, and spiritual warfare.

    Anyhow I'm glad I found him online. As far as the details of what goes on in the room when he performs a solemn exorcism, I'm not intrigued by all of that. Everything else he presents is solid imo.

    What are the general thoughts here about Fr Ripperger ? I realize he's indult but he certainly is orthodox.
    Even an indult friend of mine burnt his books after consulting a more traditional priest because some of the exorcism prayers in there are NOT for laymen even if he claims so in the books. Some families encountered disturbance after reciting those.
    Also, he's just popular on the internet because he gets more promotion. As for the sermons, I've heard many that are better. As for if he's validly ordained? Doubt.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #23 on: September 11, 2022, 01:45:05 PM »
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  • I have listened to his videos and they were helpful.  

    I never prayed any of those deliverance prayers.  
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline canis

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #24 on: September 11, 2022, 02:21:31 PM »
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  • Nobody's denying diabolical influence or activity, just the EXTENT of it.  Traditionally, inclinations toward sinful behavior are attributed to one of THREE sources, the flesh, the devil, and the world.  It's almost as if Father Ripperger ignores the other two causes and seems to imply that it's all caused by the devil.  If someone is addicted to pornography, it's not because his great great great grandfather committed sins of impurity.

    I agree with you. I was simply clarifying that "obsession" is in fact a traditional term. Someone had earlier expressed doubt that "obsession" was found in traditional, pre-VII theology. I don't know how Fr Ripperger uses it, but the term is found in most of the standard manuals of spiritual and ascetic theology, e.g. Tanquerey, Royo Marin, Poulain.

    While there were many other terms to designate diabolical influence, in systematic theology as found in the early 20th century, the neoscholastics found it most useful to classify under the three broad categories I mentioned: temptations, obsession (external or internal), and possession.

    Offline canis

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #25 on: September 11, 2022, 02:28:29 PM »
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  • Regarding the term diabolic obsession not used prior to VII, it is because it was previously known as Circuмsession.

    Typically circuмsession (Lat. circuмsessio) referred to the relations of the Three Persons of the Trinity and their mutual indwelling. Circuмsessio is different than obsessio, but some of the spiritual authors note that earlier authors, before the advent of neoscholastic systematic theology, used various terms interchangeably. However, I'm not well read in the books on demons... The manualists seem not to use circuмsessio to refer to diabolical influence because this term is already used in reference to Trinitarian theology. Tanquerey and Royo Marin (and the authors they cite) tend to use obsession and possession as the main divisions when discussing the relationship of diabolical influence to the spiritual life.

    I am also very skeptical of referring to Original Sin and its consequences as an example of "generational spirits," since no traditional theologian that I have ever read does this. Could you furnish a concrete example of a theologian who does so, or perhaps one that Fr Ripperger references?


    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #26 on: September 11, 2022, 02:40:45 PM »
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  • This would tell me, not sure why it doesn't tell you, but this would tell me in no uncertain terms that something I'm doing is wrong. If I tied it to Fr. Ripperger as you do, then that would be the immediate end of him for me. 

    Some years ago I listened to a few dozen of his sermons / talks and they were good, but, not sure how I would describe them exactly, maybe simply saying that his are sermons given by an indult priest is the best way to describe what you will hear. But thankfully, I did not experience what you did.

      We have zero, I repeat, zero reason to delve into the source of our temptations any deeper than to know the devil is tempting us. This is a curiosity that is not only dangerous to delve into, there is something a bit perverse about it as well. What you describe strikes me, or is likened to him writing about us trying to figure out a particular devil's personality, scary for him to even publish such a thing, even though these days I think most would disagree.

    What we need to know, and *all* that we need to know, is the best methods to avoid temptation so as to not sin. 

    I could go on about the reasons why I stopped listening to him, suffice to say that there is a lot he says that does not need saying, a lot that does not say, and some things he should say that he does not, just the same as many [indult] priests. I used to wonder if the revenue he generates for his order has anything to do with it, but I don't really think that's it. I think he waves both the trad and NO flags - as do all indult priests, and this is what came out in the sermons I heard. 
    Well I just spent about 20 minutes preparing a reply to your post and when I tried to submit it it said I was logged out and I lost the text. 

    Longer story short, I agree all we need to know is how to fight temptation. And the great majority of his catechesis is precisely on that topic.

    Before I started praying the Deliverance prayers and the Auxilium Christianorum prayers I was in and out of the confessional a couple times a week over the same four sins. It's going on 2 months since I've committed those sins. I've been tempted but immediately caught myself. So I think I am doing something right. And evidence of it is that I'm pissing off the demons responsible for tempting me to commit those sins.

    I'm closing whatever doors were open and now they're trying a different tactic of scaring me and it's failing.

    My prayer time has increased ~ tenfold and for the first time in my life I get what true mental prayer is by reading the Lehodey work I discovered while a watching one of Fr Ripperger's videos.

    He's not for everyone. I totally get that. 

    Pax





       

    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline HolyAngels

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #27 on: September 11, 2022, 03:03:55 PM »
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  • Typically circuмsession (Lat. circuмsessio) referred to the relations of the Three Persons of the Trinity and their mutual indwelling. Circuмsessio is different than obsessio, but some of the spiritual authors note that earlier authors, before the advent of neoscholastic systematic theology, used various terms interchangeably. However, I'm not well read in the books on demons... The manualists seem not to use circuмsessio to refer to diabolical influence because this term is already used in reference to Trinitarian theology. Tanquerey and Royo Marin (and the authors they cite) tend to use obsession and possession as the main divisions when discussing the relationship of diabolical influence to the spiritual life.

    I am also very skeptical of referring to Original Sin and its consequences as an example of "generational spirits," since no traditional theologian that I have ever read does this. Could you furnish a concrete example of a theologian who does so, or perhaps one that Fr Ripperger references?
    No, original sin as an example is totally an notion of my own. I'm wide open to correction on that.

    I just took a quick glance at the chapter where he discusses generational spirits and there are quite a few footnotes and citations. One is from Mark 9:20 Where a man brings his possessed son to Jesus, and the man is asked how long his son had been this way. The man answered "from his birth". Fr Ripperger then proceeds to speculate on causes. One of which is while the infant was in the womb the mother may have committed a sin which granted access to a demon.

    Just scanning over the text I noticed St Thomas mentioned. Fr Ripperger offers another way demons can get access to children which is by means of the sins of parents. And the children can commit those sins by means of imitation.

    I'll have to wait until later this evening and read the entire section on generational spirits.
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #28 on: September 11, 2022, 04:30:14 PM »
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  • I’d be cautious about getting overly involved in his exorcism prayers.  He wrote and adapted most of them.  I think it’s not good for lay people to be praying other than short spiritual warfare prayers as needed under demonic temptation, or as guided by one’s spiritual advisor.  (One amateur exorcist in the resistance movement is enough!) 
    .
    Indeed. Why does he need to be writing his own prayers? I've never heard of a traditional priest composing his own prayers. And I believe prayers before Vatican 2 had to be approved by a bishop.

    In any case, why not just tell people to say the rosary? Isn't that effective enough against demons?! I've heard of maybe one or two prayers specifically against demons before Vatican 2, such as the St. Michael's prayer (both versions, I guess), and the minor exorcism, which I think it a longer version of the two I mentioned already. Other than that, the idea doesn't appear to be traditional. And you're telling me Ripperger has written enough of these anti-demon prayers to fill an entire BOOK??! :facepalm:

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Anyone follow Fr Ripperger here ?
    « Reply #29 on: September 11, 2022, 04:35:32 PM »
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  • The St. Michael's prayer and the Rosary are really all you need, practically. I have first-hand experience of the St. Michael's prayer's efficacy. You don't need a book full of spurious prayers from some celebrity exorcist.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]