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Author Topic: You are in mortal sin!  (Read 2551 times)

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Änσnymσus

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You are in mortal sin!
« on: November 19, 2013, 05:41:35 PM »
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  • I have noticed recently that opponents in arguments on this site are frequently accusing their opponent of being in mortal sin.


    Offline Ambrose

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    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #1 on: November 19, 2013, 05:45:00 PM »
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  • It is a mortal sin to refuse assent to universal papal teaching on matters of Faith and morals.  Some on this forum not only refuse to assent to the universal teaching of Pope Pius XII on a moral matter, but are actively trying convince Catholics to reject this teaching as well.

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #2 on: November 19, 2013, 05:47:12 PM »
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  • Yes, and your opponents say you are in mortal sin for rejecting the infallible teaching of Pope Pius XI.

    Offline Ambrose

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    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #3 on: November 19, 2013, 05:53:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    Yes, and your opponents say you are in mortal sin for rejecting the infallible teaching of Pope Pius XI.


    Yes, they say that, but that is because they are in rebellion, and are not learning their Faith from the Pope.

    They pretend that that they can sit in judgment of Pope Pius XII, and that they understand morality better than him.  

    They pretend that Pope Pius XII taught something against the teaching of his predecessor.  

    They have no clue what they are talking about.  The blind lead the blind over the cliff.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #4 on: November 19, 2013, 06:09:28 PM »
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  • Allmonks locuta est, causa finita est.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 12:13:27 AM »
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  • AM wrote:

    Quote
    Even though you admitted that Pope John XXII taught heresy in a sermon, you deny that Pius XII could do the same in his speech to midwifes, even though his speech to midwifes is just as fallible and in no way different from Pope John XXII's fallible, condemned sermon.


    I also urged you to read the link I gave you.  If you had, you would have learned that John XXII was not teaching with his power as Pope, was only putting forth the idea as a theologian, and was willing to be corrected if he was wrong, which he did in fact admit prior to his death.
     
    You would have also learned that the teaching in the particular judgment had not been clearly defined until the next Pope, Benedict XII ended the issue and taught and therefore bound the universal Church the teaching of the particular judgment.

    You cannot equate the case of John XXII with your idea that a Pope can teach the universal Church a heresy or that it is permissible to commit a mortal sin under certain circuмstances.

    As I sated before, the Papacy is protected by Our Lord Jesus Christ.  The Pope cannot lead the flock entrusted to him astray in his teaching on matters of Faith and moral given to the universal Church.  

    You can dig all you want, you will never find an example of your idea in the entire history of the Church.  You will never find a source to support you, except Protestant sources.  

    You stand alone.  No Catholic ever believed what you believe.  

    On my side, there is the teaching from sacred Scripture, the fathers, the popes, the Doctors and the theologians on the Papacy.  Your position stands against all of them.

    Your position is a direct attack on the Papacy!

    Offline Ambrose

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    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 12:14:41 AM »
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  • AM wrote:

    Quote
    Even though you admitted that Pope John XXII taught heresy in a sermon, you deny that Pius XII could do the same in his speech to midwifes, even though his speech to midwifes is just as fallible and in no way different from Pope John XXII's fallible, condemned sermon.


    I also urged you to read the link I gave you.  If you had, you would have learned that John XXII was not teaching with his power as Pope, was only putting forth the idea as a theologian, and was willing to be corrected if he was wrong, which he did in fact admit prior to his death.
     
    You would have also learned that the teaching in the particular judgment had not been clearly defined until the next Pope, Benedict XII ended the issue and taught and therefore bound the universal Church the teaching of the particular judgment.

    You cannot equate the case of John XXII with your idea that a Pope can teach the universal Church a heresy or that it is permissible to commit a mortal sin under certain circuмstances.

    As I sated before, the Papacy is protected by Our Lord Jesus Christ.  The Pope cannot lead the flock entrusted to him astray in his teaching on matters of Faith and moral given to the universal Church.  

    You can dig all you want, you will never find an example of your idea in the entire history of the Church.  You will never find a source to support you, except Protestant sources.  

    You stand alone.  No Catholic ever believed what you believe.  

    On my side, there is the teaching from Sacred Scripture, the Fathers, the Popes, the Doctors and the Theologians on the Papacy.  Your position stands against all of them.

    Your position is a direct attack on the Papacy!
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 12:34:26 AM »
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  • All this talk of mortal sin makes me glad that I went to confession this morning.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #8 on: November 20, 2013, 04:58:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    It is a mortal sin to refuse assent to universal papal teaching on matters of Faith and morals.  Some on this forum not only refuse to assent to the universal teaching of Pope Pius XII on a moral matter, but are actively trying convince Catholics to reject this teaching as well.



    Pope Pius XII letter to mid wives is not universal, why do you say it is universal when it is addressed to only mid wives?




    Offline Ambrose

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    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #9 on: November 20, 2013, 08:02:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    Quote from: Ambrose
    It is a mortal sin to refuse assent to universal papal teaching on matters of Faith and morals.  Some on this forum not only refuse to assent to the universal teaching of Pope Pius XII on a moral matter, but are actively trying convince Catholics to reject this teaching as well.



    Pope Pius XII letter to mid wives is not universal, why do you say it is universal when it is addressed to only mid wives?





    It was not a letter, it was an Address, a speech given by the Pope.  The Address itself was not universal, it was a speech given to the midwives.

    When the Pope placed his words given in the Address is in Acta, that act made it universal.  The Acta is the official journal of the acts of the Holy See, published and sent to the hierarchy throughout the world.

    Msgr. Fenton explains:

         
    Quote
    The first question to be considered is this: Can a speech addressed by the Roman Pontiff to a private group, a group which cannot in any sense be taken as representing either the Roman Church or the universal Church, contain doctrinal teaching authoritative for the universal Church?

         The clear and unequivocal answer to this question is contained in the Holy Father's encyclical letter Humani generis, issued Aug. 12, 1950.  According to this docuмent: "if, in their 'Acta' the Supreme Pontiffs take care to render a decision on a point that has hitherto been controverted, it is obvious to all that this point, according to the mind and will of these same Pontiffs, can no longer be regarded as a question theologians may freely debate among themselves."[6]

         Thus, in the teaching of the Humani generis, any doctrinal decision made by the Pope and included in his "Acta" are authoritative.  Now many of the allocutions made by the Sovereign Pontiff to private groups are included in the "Acta" of the Sovereign Pontiff himself, as a section of the Acta apostolicae sedis. Hence, any doctrinal decision made in one of these allocutions that is published in the Holy Father's "Acta" is authoritative and binding on all the members of the universal Church.

         There is, according to the words of the Humani generis, an authoritative doctrinal decision whenever the Roman Pontiffs, in their "Acta," "de re hactenus controversa data opera sententiam ferunt."  When this condition is fulfilled, even in an allocution originally delivered to a private group, but subsequently published as part of the Holy Father's "Acta,"
    an authoritative doctrinal judgment has been proposed to the universal Church.  All of those within the Church are obliged, under penalty of serious sin, to accept this decision.


    Taken from, The Doctrinal Authority of Papal Allocutions, Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, The American Ecclesiastical Review, Feb. 1956, pg. 109-117,
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #10 on: November 20, 2013, 11:50:53 AM »
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  • This is like a brawl that starts in a bar and then gets taken out into the street and then into another bar, back out into the street, into a China shop, back out into the street, down a cliff and into the water, and down the water fall.  

    I would suggest that one fighter is sober and the other is not.  They both seem very sober but one is more correct than the other.  

    Nothing against AllMonks (please excuse me if I got the name wrong) as he seems knowledgeable, sincere and of good will.  But Ambrose is on the right side again as if you reject the authoritative teaching of a valid Pope you need to go the "Catholic Martyr" [blogger] route and reject him as Pope.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #11 on: November 20, 2013, 12:08:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    I have noticed recently that opponents in arguments on this site are frequently accusing their opponent of being in mortal sin.


    I haven't seen any of that at all.  


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #12 on: November 20, 2013, 12:19:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Guest
    Yes, and your opponents say you are in mortal sin for rejecting the infallible teaching of Pope Pius XI.


    Yes, they say that, but that is because they are in rebellion, and are not learning their Faith from the Pope.

    They pretend that that they can sit in judgment of Pope Pius XII, and that they understand morality better than him.  

    They pretend that Pope Pius XII taught something against the teaching of his predecessor.  

    They have no clue what they are talking about.  The blind lead the blind over the cliff.


    Ambrose,

    What are the two sources?  The one from Pius XI and the one from Pius XII?

    I want to read them both to see if there is a contradiction.


    Offline Ambrose

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    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #13 on: November 20, 2013, 12:42:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: Guest
    Yes, and your opponents say you are in mortal sin for rejecting the infallible teaching of Pope Pius XI.


    Yes, they say that, but that is because they are in rebellion, and are not learning their Faith from the Pope.

    They pretend that that they can sit in judgment of Pope Pius XII, and that they understand morality better than him.  

    They pretend that Pope Pius XII taught something against the teaching of his predecessor.  

    They have no clue what they are talking about.  The blind lead the blind over the cliff.


    Ambrose,

    What are the two sources?  The one from Pius XI and the one from Pius XII?

    I want to read them both to see if there is a contradiction.



    Capt.

    They claim that the teaching in Casti Connubii of Pope Pius XI found HERE

    Stands against the teaching of Pope Pius XII found HERE.

    And by extension they would also include Pius XII's teaching HERE

    There is one more Address of Pius XII on this subject, it is not online, and was given in November, 1951.  I believe I have it and if I can find it I will put it up on CathInfo library.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    You are in mortal sin!
    « Reply #14 on: November 20, 2013, 07:36:40 PM »
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  • Quote
    You are a Fentenite if you follow that heretic Fenton. Do not believe a word that man says - not ever.


    This is one of the dumbest comments I have ever read on here.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic