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Author Topic: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin  (Read 25750 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
« Reply #330 on: January 29, 2019, 04:28:01 PM »
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  • You are correct.  I missed it because I skimmed over the entire page quickly.  I'm working on other things while engaging in this thread.  See, unlike yourself, I'm willing to admit a mistake.  So I retract my previous assertion.  You, on the contrary, won't retract your original lie that moralists are unanimous in their condemnation of makeup as sinful.

    But, as with every other response of yours, you refuse to address the reason St. Thomas gives for always.  That always is relative to the conditions stipulated just before.  What he's saying with that is that the conditions above don't apply because men do not consider it acceptable.  It's not an absolute always.

    St. Thomas writes that, according to St. Augustine, "simple adornment" is permitted under three conditions (proper intention/motivation, within the bonds of societal custom, and in keeping with a woman's status).  But then these conditions do not apply to "paint" because men disapprove of it.  In other words, even if the intention is good, society as a whole approves of it, and it's in keeping with a woman's status.  We see in the Summa confirmation that the always is not absolute when he stipulates that there's no sin when it's used to conceal defects.

    Now kindly post the section of your refutation (or rephrase it) which you believe addresses how the absolute use of always is compatible with the fact that St. Thomas says it's not sinful to use makeup to conceal defects.  This supports the fact that the always is used in context as saying the stipulated three conditions do not apply to the case of makeup since men disapprove of it.
    Another fail:
    The rest of the forum, which has read my response (while you persist in avoiding it) , is already aware that I conceded Thomas seems to except from his “always” motives which stem not from vanity, but from charity (eg., hiding disfigurement).
    But for motives of vanity, the “always” remains (and it is for precisely such reasons the libertines here have fought to retain their makeup.
    I’m not going to repost my whole response for you when you have demonstrated a firm resolve to avoid it, but it’s right after the pics if you ever have a change of heart.
    Pax 

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #331 on: January 29, 2019, 04:33:54 PM »
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  •  :facepalm:

    Why does Traditional Catholicism seem to attract puritanistic, Jansenistic, overly-scrupulous, and generally unbalanced people?

    For such poor souls, the Faith is nothing but a series of rules, regulations, dogmas and rites.     

    And for the specific "Anonymous" poster who is whining about women and cosmetics, the boasting, brashness, and lack of charity in his posts tells me he has a great big beam in his eye that he needs to deal with before he focuses on the mote in someone else's.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #332 on: January 29, 2019, 04:40:03 PM »
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  • :facepalm:

    Why does Traditional Catholicism seem to attract puritanistic, Jansenistic, overly-scrupulous, and generally unbalanced people?

    For such poor souls, the Faith is nothing but a series of rules, regulations, dogmas and rites.    

    And for the specific "Anonymous" poster who is whining about women and cosmetics, the boasting, brashness, and lack of charity in his posts tells me he has a great big beam in his eye that he needs to deal with before he focuses on the mote in someone else's.
    Yes, yes, quoting all these saints and doctors has been very uncharitable.
    Translation: Those who would restrict or restrain me are Jansenist and Puritanical.
    Pretty much a default argument useful for any topic at all.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #333 on: January 29, 2019, 04:54:28 PM »
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  • Another fail:
    The rest of the forum, which has read my response (while you persist in avoiding it) , is already aware that I conceded Thomas seems to except from his “always” motives which stem not from vanity, but from charity (eg., hiding disfigurement).
    But for motives of vanity, the “always” remains (and it is for precisely such reasons the libertines here have fought to retain their makeup.
    I’m not going to repost my whole response for you when you have demonstrated a firm resolve to avoid it, but it’s right after the pics if you ever have a change of heart.
    Pax

    Ah, so you finally reveal yourself, Pax.  It's no wonder that you don't want to put your name to this ridiculous position.

    Either it's "always" or it isn't, Pax.  

    So by your own admission now, it's the vanity which constitutes sin and not the makeup itself ... since if done without vanity, there's no sin.  And that's exactly what some of us have been saying since the beginning of this thread.

    So, then, a man who styles his hair in a certain way, perhaps in a way he considers makes him look the best, that's sinful vanity as well?

    If a man performs certain grooming activities to make himself appear more masculine than he might otherwise, that's a sin also?  So a man might decide whether he wants to be clean-shaven, or have a beard, or a moustache, or a close-cut beard, or a bushy beard ... because that happens to be the look that he prefers, is that sinful vanity also?  Is it sinful for a man to use coloring to get rid of some splotchy gray in his facial hair after he gets to a certain age?  I've known women who feel that they look a bit masculine and use makeup to "soften" their features.  What's wrong with that?

    I think that Cajetan had it exactly right, applying the notion that art imitates nature, and that making oneself appear closer to the natural ideal, is perfectly permissible.  That's why it's OK for a man to either do his hair or grow his facial hair in such a way as to make him seem the most masculine.  And that's why it's OK for a woman to apply a bit of makeup to make her seem softer, smoother, and more feminine.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #334 on: January 29, 2019, 04:55:47 PM »
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  • :facepalm:

    Why does Traditional Catholicism seem to attract puritanistic, Jansenistic, overly-scrupulous, and generally unbalanced people?

    For such poor souls, the Faith is nothing but a series of rules, regulations, dogmas and rites.    

    And for the specific "Anonymous" poster who is whining about women and cosmetics, the boasting, brashness, and lack of charity in his posts tells me he has a great big beam in his eye that he needs to deal with before he focuses on the mote in someone else's.

    Well put.   :applause:


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #335 on: January 29, 2019, 04:57:20 PM »
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  • Yes, yes, quoting all these saints and doctors has been very uncharitable.
    Translation: Those who would restrict or restrain me are Jansenist and Puritanical.
    Pretty much a default argument useful for any topic at all.

    No, man, it's about your self-righteous, Pharisaical tone.  Someone who writes from principle would be a little more even-keeled about it.  Everyone agrees that there need to be restrictions, but it's your harsh tone where you would equate a woman who uses a bit of foundation and concealer to smooth her sin with her acting like a veritable harlot.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #336 on: January 29, 2019, 05:11:04 PM »
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  • Quote
    Ah, so you finally reveal yourself, Pax.  It's no wonder that you don't want to put your name to this ridiculous position.
    That post was not mine.  The anonymous author was signing off using “Pax”.  I’ve already posted earlier...

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #337 on: January 29, 2019, 05:12:35 PM »
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  • Ah, so you finally reveal yourself, Pax.  It's no wonder that you don't want to put your name to this ridiculous position.

    Either it's "always" or it isn't, Pax.  

    So by your own admission now, it's the vanity which constitutes sin and not the makeup itself ... since if done without vanity, there's no sin.  And that's exactly what some of us have been saying since the beginning of this thread.

    So, then, a man who styles his hair in a certain way, perhaps in a way he considers makes him look the best, that's sinful vanity as well?

    If a man performs certain grooming activities to make himself appear more masculine than he might otherwise, that's a sin also?  So a man might decide whether he wants to be clean-shaven, or have a beard, or a moustache, or a close-cut beard, or a bushy beard ... because that happens to be the look that he prefers, is that sinful vanity also?  Is it sinful for a man to use coloring to get rid of some splotchy gray in his facial hair after he gets to a certain age?  I've known women who feel that they look a bit masculine and use makeup to "soften" their features.  What's wrong with that?

    I think that Cajetan had it exactly right, applying the notion that art imitates nature, and that making oneself appear closer to the natural ideal, is perfectly permissible.  That's why it's OK for a man to either do his hair or grow his facial hair in such a way as to make him seem the most masculine.  And that's why it's OK for a woman to apply a bit of makeup to make her seem softer, smoother, and more feminine.
    My final post in this thread, only as a matter of justice:
    Where you humorously thought to have confidently dricovered I was Quid/Croix earlier (epic fail), you now make another blunder in guessing I am Pax.
    I am not Pax.
    Pax


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #338 on: January 29, 2019, 05:18:08 PM »
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  • My final post in this thread, only as a matter of justice:
    Where you humorously thought to have confidently dricovered I was Quid/Croix earlier (epic fail), you now make another blunder in guessing I am Pax.
    I am not Pax.
    Pax
    Ironically anonymous posts are like wearing heavy makeup to conceal ones true identity.
    ..

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #339 on: January 29, 2019, 05:31:50 PM »
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  • Ironically anonymous posts are like wearing heavy makeup to conceal ones true identity.
    ..
    This  :applause: :applause: :applause:
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #340 on: January 29, 2019, 05:36:23 PM »
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  • Ironically anonymous posts are like wearing heavy makeup to conceal ones true identity.
    ..
    :applause: Not alll hero’s wear capes. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #341 on: January 29, 2019, 06:14:53 PM »
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  • My final post in this thread, only as a matter of justice:
    Where you humorously thought to have confidently dricovered I was Quid/Croix earlier (epic fail), you now make another blunder in guessing I am Pax.
    I am not Pax.
    Pax

    Well, I mistakenly thought that your use of "Pax" with a capital P was intended to reveal your identity.

    Have a nice evening, Judith.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #342 on: January 29, 2019, 06:16:17 PM »
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  • That post was not mine.  The anonymous author was signing off using “Pax”.  I’ve already posted earlier...

    I apologize, Pax.  He signed one of his posts "Pax" at the bottom (like Matthew sometimes does with an Anonymous post) ... after I called him out for remaining anonymous.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #343 on: January 29, 2019, 06:53:36 PM »
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  • Yes, yes, quoting all these saints and doctors has been very uncharitable.
    Translation: Those who would restrict or restrain me are Jansenist and Puritanical.
    Pretty much a default argument useful for any topic at all.
    Quotes from the Saints are not dogma, and you continue to use them as if they are. Even doctors of the Church have made mistakes. They had opinions like anyone else and are not infallible. So your own opinion matches a few quotes from centuries ago, not exactly theologian material as an anonymous poster on a forum. 

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #344 on: January 29, 2019, 08:39:05 PM »
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  • Ironically anonymous posts are like wearing heavy makeup to conceal ones true identity.
    ..
    Ha! That was good. Nearly everyone here uses a screen name to begin with, so you're really hiding out when you bring your topic to the lofty Anonymous subforum!