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Author Topic: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin  (Read 47485 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
« Reply #315 on: January 29, 2019, 01:52:23 PM »
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    • Ps: It is not necessary to make a new post for each new sentence.  Try stringing them together in a single post and you might not have a 10,000?post history.
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #316 on: January 29, 2019, 01:54:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 29, 2019, 01:36:06 PM
    And we read St. Thomas says that makeup can be used without sin to conceal defects.

    Do you not grant that he said this in the Summa passage that I cited?
    And you will note that as the exception because it is based in charity, not vanity (which, were you not so afraid of my refutation, you would go back and respond to it).
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #317 on: January 29, 2019, 01:56:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 29, 2019, 01:43:15 PM
    Do you have a citation to WHERE in Timothy?  I think I found a copy.
    You have the same St Alphonsus reference I have.  Go review it.  He simply says chapter 2.
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #318 on: January 29, 2019, 02:00:44 PM »
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    • Women wear makeup, mainly because they like the way it makes them look. No different than a man combing his hair really - that's if the guy has any hair. If the guy is bald, then it could be compared to the bald guy brushing his teeth. If the bald guy has no teeth, then it could be compared to the bald guy wearing dentures because not only does he think that dentures make him look better, with them in, he can eat food more easily.



     
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #319 on: January 29, 2019, 02:44:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 29, 2019, 02:00:44 PM
    Women wear makeup, mainly because they like the way it makes them look. No different than a man combing his hair really - that's if the guy has any hair. If the guy is bald, then it could be compared to the bald guy brushing his teeth. If the bald guy has no teeth, then it could be compared to the bald guy wearing dentures because not only does he think that dentures make him look better, with them in, he can eat food more easily.



     
    Hygiene is not makeup.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #320 on: January 29, 2019, 03:15:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 29, 2019, 01:54:52 PM
    And you will note that as the exception because it is based in charity, not vanity (which, were you not so afraid of my refutation, you would go back and respond to it).

    So what happened to the "always"?

    Now you're claiming that it's because of vanity that it's a sin.  So it's not the makeup that is sinful but the vanity?  Which one is it?
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #321 on: January 29, 2019, 03:18:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 29, 2019, 03:15:37 PM
    So what happened to the "always"?

    Now you're claiming that it's because of vanity that it's a sin.  So it's not the makeup that is sinful but the vanity?  Which one is it?
    If you weren’t so afraid to read my response, you would know.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #322 on: January 29, 2019, 03:31:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 29, 2019, 03:18:32 PM
    If you weren’t so afraid to read my response, you would know.

    You're the one who's afraid to answer.  Answer the question.  How is it always when it's not sinful if not done for reasons of vanity?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #323 on: January 29, 2019, 03:42:22 PM »
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    • I found the commentary from St. Thomas on I Timothy 2.

    He does not use the word "always".  That's added by St. Alphonsus by way of interpretation.

    St. Thomas uses the word "dye, color, or paint" (fucare in Latin).

    And he says it's a sin, why, because "men do not wish to be deceived."  He says that women are not permitted to be "decorated" (ornari) except on account of men (propter viros) and men do not wish to be deceived.  So the REASON he gives is because men do not want painted women.  It's not some absolute reason such as it being contrary to nature.  It's because men don't want to be deceived by a painted woman.  He also speaks about social norms as being a guiding principle.

    So, as we've already discussed, the nature of "painting" was much different back then than the light application of natural-looking makeup.  Secondly, men's attitudes towards makeup have changed.  Men in general do not reject the female use of makeup, and so if a woman's husband permits it, or even encourages it, then the rationale for it being "sinful", as given by St. Thomas, goes away.

    Later in the Summa he add the consideration about it being OK to cover up natural defects.

    For your reading pleasure:
    https://aquinas.cc/236/238/~290

    This is a great resource, by the way.  Has both English and Latin ... and has all the Scriptural commentaries from St. Thomas.  If there's one good thing that came out of this thread, it's that it led me to discover this link.
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #324 on: January 29, 2019, 03:47:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 29, 2019, 03:31:03 PM
    You're the one who's afraid to answer.  Answer the question.  How is it always when it's not sinful if not done for reasons of vanity?
    The rest of the forum read my Refutation a day ago.  Since then you have made 30 posts without even acknowledging it exists.  
    Should the day ever come, the answer will be right there waiting for you.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #325 on: January 29, 2019, 03:55:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 29, 2019, 03:47:50 PM
    The rest of the forum read my Refutation a day ago.  Since then you have made 30 posts without even acknowledging it exists.  
    Should the day ever come, the answer will be right there waiting for you.

    Which "refutation" do you claim addresses this question?  Since you won't decloak from anonimity, it's hard to even follow who's who.  I'm not about to spend an hour going through all 24 pages on this thread hunting for something you think might address this.  Simply copy and re-paste the portion of said "refutation" that you imagine addresses this point.  Or is it too difficult for you to type a brief response again?
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #326 on: January 29, 2019, 04:01:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 29, 2019, 03:42:22 PM
    I found the commentary from St. Thomas on I Timothy 2.

    He does not use the word "always".  That's added by St. Alphonsus by way of interpretation.

    St. Thomas uses the word "dye, color, or paint" (fucare in Latin).

    And he says it's a sin, why, because "men do not wish to be deceived."  He says that women are not permitted to be "decorated" (ornari) except on account of men (propter viros) and men do not wish to be deceived.  So the REASON he gives is because men do not want painted women.  It's not some absolute reason such as it being contrary to nature.  It's because men don't want to be deceived by a painted woman.  He also speaks about social norms as being a guiding principle.

    So, as we've already discussed, the nature of "painting" was much different back then than the light application of natural-looking makeup.  Secondly, men's attitudes towards makeup have changed.  Men in general do not reject the female use of makeup, and so if a woman's husband permits it, or even encourages it, then the rationale for it being "sinful", as given by St. Thomas, goes away.

    Later in the Summa he add the consideration about it being OK to cover up natural defects.

    For your reading pleasure:
    https://aquinas.cc/236/238/~290

    This is a great resource, by the way.  Has both English and Latin ... and has all the Scriptural commentaries from St. Thomas.  If there's one good thing that came out of this thread, it's that it led me to discover this link.
    EPIC FAIL:
    St Alphonsus did NOT add the word “always” (shall I follow your example and call you a liar for your carelessness now):
    The English translation omits the word, BUT IT IS CONTAINED IN THE LATIN ORIGINAL:
    “de fucato autem SEMPER est peccatum.”
    Semper = Always (which you would have known had you read my response).
    You have falsified both Thomas and Alphonsus.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #327 on: January 29, 2019, 04:04:31 PM »
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    • Here's a good summary of makeup practices in the Middle Ages (about contemporaneous with St. Thomas).

    https://rosaliegilbert.com/cosmetics.html

    Quote
    The Compendium Anglicus from 1240 written by Gilbertus Anglicus, mentions brazilwood chips soaked in rosewater would give a clear, pink dye which can be rubbed on the cheeks. A 13th century French song described in Love Lock'd Out, A Survey of Love, Licence and Restriction in the Middle Ages by James Cleugh refers to a peddlar who carries for sale:
    'razors, tweezers, looking glasses, toothbrushes and tooth-picks, bandaus and curling irons, ribbons, combs, mirrors, rosewater... cotton with which they rouge themselves and whitening with which they whiten themselves.'

    showing the large range of grooming cosmetics and tools which were in use at the time.

    So women whitened their face, and then applied rouge on the cheeks for a very unnatural look.

    At the link there are even pictures of some statues of Our Lady made up in this manner.
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #328 on: January 29, 2019, 04:09:25 PM »
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    • Quote
     it, then the rationale for it being "sinful", as given by St. Thomas, goes away.

    Later in the Summa he add the consideration about it being OK to cover up natural defects.

    For your reading pleasure:
    https://aquinas.cc/236/238/~290

    This is a great resource, by the way.  Has both English and Latin ... and has all the Scriptural commentaries from St. Thomas.  If there's one good thing that came out of this thread, it's that it led me to discover this link.

    EPIC FAIL:
    St Alphonsus did NOT add the word “always” (shall I follow your example and call you a liar for your carelessness now):
    The English translation omits the word, BUT IT IS CONTAINED IN THE LATIN ORIGINAL:
    “de fucato autem SEMPER est peccatum.”
    Semper = Always (which you would have known had you read my response).
    You have falsified both Thomas and Alphonsus 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #329 on: January 29, 2019, 04:18:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 29, 2019, 04:01:46 PM
    EPIC FAIL:
    St Alphonsus did NOT add the word “always” (shall I follow your example and call you a liar for your carelessness now):
    The English translation omits the word, BUT IT IS CONTAINED IN THE LATIN ORIGINAL:
    “de fucato autem SEMPER est peccatum.”
    Semper = Always (which you would have known had you read my response).
    You have falsified both Thomas and Alphonsus.

    You are correct.  I missed it because I skimmed over the entire page quickly.  I'm working on other things while engaging in this thread.  See, unlike yourself, I'm willing to admit a mistake.  So I retract my previous assertion.  You, on the contrary, won't retract your original lie that moralists are unanimous in their condemnation of makeup as sinful.

    But, as with every other response of yours, you refuse to address the reason St. Thomas gives for always.  That always is relative to the conditions stipulated just before.  What he's saying with that is that the conditions above don't apply because men do not consider it acceptable.  It's not an absolute always.

    St. Thomas writes that, according to St. Augustine, "simple adornment" is permitted under three conditions (proper intention/motivation, within the bonds of societal custom, and in keeping with a woman's status).  But then these conditions do not apply to "paint" because men disapprove of it.  In other words, even if the intention is good, society as a whole approves of it, and it's in keeping with a woman's status.  We see in the Summa confirmation that the always is not absolute when he stipulates that there's no sin when it's used to conceal defects.

    Now kindly post the section of your refutation (or rephrase it) which you believe addresses how the absolute use of always is compatible with the fact that St. Thomas says it's not sinful to use makeup to conceal defects.  This supports the fact that the always is used in context as saying the stipulated three conditions do not apply to the case of makeup since men disapprove of it.
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