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Author Topic: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin  (Read 25758 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
« Reply #300 on: January 29, 2019, 11:45:55 AM »
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  • Basically, you have ignored the most recent response of your primary interlocutor, and simply reiterated what you said previously.

    I would like to see you address those arguments.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #301 on: January 29, 2019, 11:54:09 AM »
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  • 3) The "it's always a sin" most certainly IS a direct quote from St. Thomas (Commentary on the First Epistle of Timothy, Ch. 2).

    My guess is not, since St. Thomas says the opposite in the Summa.  In any case, neither of us has been able to find the actual text.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #302 on: January 29, 2019, 11:55:05 AM »
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  • Basically, you have ignored the most recent response of your primary interlocutor, and simply reiterated what you said previously.

    I would like to see you address those arguments.

    Look, you have ignored EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT and POINT that I have made on this thread, but keep repeating and reposting the same stuff over and over again.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #303 on: January 29, 2019, 11:56:26 AM »
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  • My guess is not, since St. Thomas says the opposite in the Summa.  In any case, neither of us has been able to find the actual text.
    Translation: Alphonsus made the citation up.
    Wow.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #304 on: January 29, 2019, 11:58:03 AM »
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  • Look, you have ignored EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT and POINT that I have made on this thread, but keep repeating and reposting the same stuff over and over again.
    You will find your arguments addressed in my primary response, which followed the posting of the pics of Theologia Moralis.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #305 on: January 29, 2019, 12:03:43 PM »
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  • Both St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus categorize both dress and makeup as "adornment", and only distinguish makeup in one or two ways from adornment in general, namely, with regard to the attempt to deceive men.  They say that dressing extravagently can be OK because men allow it, but makeup is wrong because men do not want to be deceived.  They are also speaking of a completely different style of makeup than the light natural-looking use of makeup that is being discussed here.  Men these days, and many husbands, not only allow their wives to wear makeup, but some even insist upon it.  So the nature of and attitudes towards makeup have changed since St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus wrote.

    Listen, folks, NOTHING PURELY MATERIAL LIKE MAKEUP can ever be considered instrinsically evil.  That's the core message of St. Paul against the Jews and the Judaizers.  Everything is in the effect (does it incite to impurity) and the intent (impurity, vanity, custom, simple grooming).  So, now, to extend your principles (since both these authors classify wigs in the same class), a woman who has lost her hair (say, due to chemotherapy) now would be sinning if she wanted to wear a wig.  According to your principles, a woman who has acne or splotchy skin or bags under her eyes, etc. now sins if she wishes to cover up some of these defects with a bit of foundation and concealer.  That's ridiculous.  In fact, St. Thomas EXPLICITLY called out this use of makeup as WITHOUT SIN.  Ergo, makeup is not intrinsically evil.  From that point, there may be various non-sinful uses of makeup to varying degrees of venially sinful use, and potentially a mortally sinful use (if it's done in such a way as to tempt men against purity).

    For those who claim that makeup is intrinsically sinful, you need to answer the question:  WHY is it sinful?  Strangely, neither St. Thomas nor St. Alphonsus bothered to articulate WHY it would be sinful.  How could they have missed that?  Oh, wait, they didn't.  It's because they did not consider it intrinsically sinful (otherwise they would have explained why it is).  Instead, they're always speaking in the context of motivations (vanity, custom, impurity, pleasing their husbands, maintaining their dignity and respectability, etc.).  So if they ignore any treatment of the inherent sinfulness and are always treating of the extrinisic considerations like these, then it's clear that they did not consider it intrinsically sinful.

    So why would makeup be intrinsically sinful?

    Because it's unnatural?  Then men shouldn't ever shave their face.  Clean-shavenness is unnatural.  We should not wear deodorant because it disguises our NATURAL aroma.  No earrings (St. Therese wore them in the picture ironically posted by the anti-makeup crowd).  No wigs for women who lost their hair from chemo or other illness.  In fact, it might even be sinful to use air refreshener to disguise the NATURAL aroma left behind after a bowel movement.  For that matter, let's all walk around naked, since that's natural as well.  We should never use unnatural medicines.  Surgery is unnatural also, so let nature just take its course.

    Because it incites to vanity or causes impurity?  But it doesn't always and in all cases.  Consequently, when these conditions are absent, there's no sin in makeup.

    End of story.

    We're Catholics, and not Puritanical gnostic Manichaeans.
    Nonsense: St Thomas clearly distinguishes between adornment and makeup (in his Commentary on Timothy, which you don’t want to take Alphonsus’s word on), when he says: “But with regard to makeup, it is always a sin...”

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #306 on: January 29, 2019, 12:12:43 PM »
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  • You will find your arguments addressed in my primary response, which followed the posting of the pics of Theologia Moralis.

    You've addressed nothing.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #307 on: January 29, 2019, 12:14:21 PM »
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  • Nonsense: St Thomas clearly distinguishes between adornment and makeup (in his Commentary on Timothy, which you don’t want to take Alphonsus’s word on), when he says: “But with regard to makeup, it is always a sin...”

    I said that IN MOST CASES, in the text available to us, from the Summa, he does not distinguish, nor does St. Alphonsus in the passages provided.

    But no one has yet provided the text of that Commentary.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #308 on: January 29, 2019, 12:16:44 PM »
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  • Let's go back to you first lie, the false allegation that all moralists unanimously agree that cosmetics are sinful.

    Quote
    In fact, Cajetan observed that beautiful clothes are suitable for wives in order to be more desirable to their husbands. He also considered blameless the use of cosmetics by (not only married) women, arguing--according to the Aristotelian axiom "art imitates nature"--that where the natural is deficient, it can be compensated for cosmetically.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #309 on: January 29, 2019, 12:32:06 PM »
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  • Let's go back to you first lie, the false allegation that all moralists unanimously agree that cosmetics are sinful.
    Congratulations!
    You found one!
    Now RUN with him against the tide!

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #310 on: January 29, 2019, 12:34:14 PM »
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  • Congratulations!
    You found one!
    Now RUN with him against the tide!
    Oh yeah: I believe someone also dug up the ever-so-authoritative.....Noldin, for you.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #311 on: January 29, 2019, 01:36:06 PM »
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  • Oh yeah: I believe someone also dug up the ever-so-authoritative.....Noldin, for you.

    And we read St. Thomas says that makeup can be used without sin to conceal defects.

    Do you not grant that he said this in the Summa passage that I cited?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #312 on: January 29, 2019, 01:37:13 PM »
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  • Congratulations!
    You found one!
    Now RUN with him against the tide!

    The point was that you lied (or were grossly ignorant) in declaring moralists to be unanimous in that opinion.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #313 on: January 29, 2019, 01:43:15 PM »
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  • Do you have a citation to WHERE in Timothy?  I think I found a copy.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #314 on: January 29, 2019, 01:50:57 PM »
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  • The point was that you lied (or were grossly ignorant) in declaring moralists to be unanimous in that opinion.
    To pass of a mistake as a lie is itself a lie, and you stand self-condemned.
    Congrats on finding the ONE eminent moralist to side with you.