Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin  (Read 20782 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2019, 09:57:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I found this quote online from St. Cyprian (and affirmed by St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa) which has me rethinking the whole matter entirely:

    (. . .)

    (Quoted by St. Thomas Aquinas,
    Doctor of the Church, in the Summa Theologica, Second Part of the Second Part, Q. 169, Art. 2)


    What do you guys think about the morality of women wearing ANY MAKEUP AT ALL? 

    The answer you seek is from the same article of the Summa.

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3169.htm#article2


    Quote
    I answer that, As regards the adornment of women, we must bear in mind the general statements made above (Article 1) concerning outward apparel, and also something special, namely that a woman's apparel may incite men to lust, according to Proverbs 7:10, "Behold a woman meeteth him in harlot's attire, prepared to deceive souls."

    Nevertheless a woman may use means to please her husband, lest through despising her he fall into adultery. Hence it is written (1 Corinthians 7:34) that the woman "that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband." Wherefore if a married woman adorn herself in order to please her husband she can do this without sin.

    But those women who have no husband nor wish to have one, or who are in a state of life inconsistent with marriage, cannot without sin desire to give lustful pleasure to those men who see them, because this is to incite them to sin. And if indeed they adorn themselves with this intention of provoking others to lust, they sin mortally; whereas if they do so from frivolity, or from vanity for the sake of ostentation, it is not always mortal, but sometimes venial. And the same applies to men in this respect. Hence Augustine says (Ep. ccxlv ad Possid.): "I do not wish you to be hasty in forbidding the wearing of gold or costly attire except in the case of those who being neither married nor wishful to marry, should think how they may please God: whereas the others think on the things of the world, either husbands how they may please their wives, or wives how they may please their husbands, except that it is unbecoming for women though married to uncover their hair, since the Apostle commands them to cover the head." Yet in this case some might be excused from sin, when they do this not through vanity but on account of some contrary custom: although such a custom is not to be commended.

    Reply to Objection 1. As a gloss says on this passage, "The wives of those who were in distress despised their husbands, and decked themselves that they might please other men": and the Apostle forbids this. Cyprian is speaking in the same sense; yet he does not forbid married women to adorn themselves in order to please their husbands, lest the latter be afforded an occasion of sin with other women. Hence the Apostle says (1 Timothy 2:9): "Women . . . in ornate [Douay: 'decent'] apparel, adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire": whence we are given to understand that women are not forbidden to adorn themselves soberly and moderately but to do so excessively, shamelessly, and immodestly.

    Reply to Objection 2. Cyprian is speaking of women painting themselves: this is a kind of falsification, which cannot be devoid of sin. Wherefore Augustine says (Ep. ccxlv ad Possid.): "To dye oneself with paints in order to have a rosier or a paler complexion is a lying counterfeit. I doubt whether even their husbands are willing to be deceived by it, by whom alone" (i.e. the husbands) "are they to be permitted, but not ordered, to adorn themselves." However, such painting does not always involve a mortal sin, but only when it is done for the sake of sensuous pleasure or in contempt of God, and it is to like cases that Cyprian refers.

    It must, however, be observed that it is one thing to counterfeit a beauty one has not, and another to hide a disfigurement arising from some cause such as sickness or the like. For this is lawful, since according to the Apostle (1 Corinthians 12:23), "such as we think to be the less honorable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honor."

    (. . .)



    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #31 on: January 23, 2019, 10:06:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The answer you seek is from the same article of the Summa.

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3169.htm#article2
    Aside from noting this was already covered way back in the 2nd post of the thread, presuming you chose St. Thomas over the other doctors mentioned, you would only have gained the liberty to wear makeup in the home, since one could not wear it in public and still claim that it was "just for my husband," knowing how many others will also view it.
    Same as a man could wear a speedo, or a woman a g-string in the home for the husband or wife only (though it is hardly congruent with Catholic sensibilities and marital restraint), but never in public.
    In other words, in citing Thomas here, you have actually limited the use of makeup, rather than emancipating your strident sisters.
    And of course, this ignores all the other saints, popes, and doctors cited earlier who disagreed with him on the matter to boot.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #32 on: January 23, 2019, 10:08:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I’m not going to stop wearing make up. Why? Because I have a duty to look good for my husband. I have a duty to show my daughters to care for their appearance, and for my son to not lower his standards to someone who doesn’t put effort into her looks. I have always loved doing, and wearing make up... and it’s an art form these days. My make up box would make the men here cringe... and let me tell you something else my blue lipstick matches nothing, and neither doesn’t my dark purple, and for that matter my natural pinks. It looks nothing like the colors of a certain part of women. Vain? No. I just actually care about my appearance, making my husband proud(what’s worse Than a wife with a yucky tired face?) and doing my make up is my self care time. It makes me feel cleaned up, proper, and ready to take on the day.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #33 on: January 23, 2019, 10:17:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I’m not going to stop wearing make up. Why? Because I have a duty to look good for my husband. I have a duty to show my daughters to care for their appearance, and for my son to not lower his standards to someone who doesn’t put effort into her looks. I have always loved doing, and wearing make up... and it’s an art form these days. My make up box would make the men here cringe... and let me tell you something else my blue lipstick matches nothing, and neither doesn’t my dark purple, and for that matter my natural pinks. It looks nothing like the colors of a certain part of women. Vain? No. I just actually care about my appearance, making my husband proud(what’s worse Than a wife with a yucky tired face?) and doing my make up is my self care time. It makes me feel cleaned up, proper, and ready to take on the day.
    Did you make all this up yourself, or did you just have a lot of barbie dolls as a youngster?
    1> You have no "duty to look goof for your husband."  If he married you for your looks, you are in trouble.  Nonetheless, could you please cite a Church docuмent for this new doctrinal duty you are propounding?
    2> Please also show the doctrine and docuмent proclaiming the duty to inculcate vanity in your daughters, or for your sone only to marry a hotty.
    3> I feel sorry for your lifetime love of painting yourself up; it shows you have a very low self-esteem, and view yourself as a sex object, however much you will deny it.
    4> You are a strident woman.  You were shown the origin and purpose of lip stick, and yet you demand your right to wear it.  Any truly Catholic woman would never wear it again.  Your faith is vain.
    5> Oh yes, I believe you care way too much about your appearance.  Maybe the nuns in the convents should start wearing rouge and lipstick, to look happier and show the beauty of their womanhood?
    6> You are going to be very sad when you are an old woman with hunched back and wrinkled face.  The way you talk, your husband will be justified in no longer loving you (and based on the lesson you are teaching your son, he should leave you for someone more attractive).
    7> You would do much better to have a cigarette, coffee, and donut to get ready to take on the day, than paint yourself up for masculine approval.
    Are you completely oblivious of how uncatholic your thinking is??

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #34 on: January 24, 2019, 04:56:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I’m not going to stop wearing make up. Why? Because I have a duty to look good for my husband. I have a duty to show my daughters to care for their appearance, and for my son to not lower his standards to someone who doesn’t put effort into her looks. I have always loved doing, and wearing make up... and it’s an art form these days. My make up box would make the men here cringe... and let me tell you something else my blue lipstick matches nothing, and neither doesn’t my dark purple, and for that matter my natural pinks. It looks nothing like the colors of a certain part of women. Vain? No. I just actually care about my appearance, making my husband proud(what’s worse Than a wife with a yucky tired face?) and doing my make up is my self care time. It makes me feel cleaned up, proper, and ready to take on the day.

    There is a difference between care for one's appearance (propriety, order, cleanliness) and vanity.

    Having good, brushed hair, clean skin, nice clean clothes is not the same as embellishing your lips with makeup, your eyes with liner and mascara and so on.

    If you are worried about your cheek color then perhaps it it is a dietary issue. We all (men included) have a duty to be natural and not pompous.


    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3001
    • Reputation: +184/-179
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #35 on: January 24, 2019, 05:13:30 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Can more people who aren't anonymous please reply?
    I tried but even though I clicked the tick box it came up as anonymous.

    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11675
    • Reputation: +6996/-498
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #36 on: January 24, 2019, 06:13:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I tried but even though I clicked the tick box it came up as anonymous.
    That happens if you decide to modify after you publish. If you don't the box on the modification as well, it comes up anonymous.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41899
    • Reputation: +23942/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #37 on: January 24, 2019, 07:58:33 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think that the priest in the OP gave the perfect response.

    We must distinguish between degrees of making up.  It's likely that the Fathers who condemned makeup were referring to common practices where it was laid on thick.

    Not all makeup is intended to be a "provocation to lust", but certain makeup practices can be done for that reason.

    So for instance, a light amount of makeup just to make the complexion a little nicer or just to look a bit more feminine or "put together" ... no problem there at all.  There's little difference between that and simply taking a shower, washing your hair, combing your hair, or putting your hair up a certain way.  Otherwise, you might go out looking like a disheveled slob.  And that's what the priest in the OP was referring to, not laying it on so thick that you look like a streetwalker.

    So, a light/moderate amount of makeup just to look decent and put together ... no different than bathing or dressing up nicely to go out (vs. dressing like a slob in a sweatshirt and sweatpants).  That's what the priest in the OP meant about treating yourself like a temple of the Holy Spirit.

    Heavy makeup to look sɛҳuąƖly attractive, well, that's where the distinction of St. Thomas comes in ... OK for one's husband, but not OK for others.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41899
    • Reputation: +23942/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #38 on: January 24, 2019, 08:32:30 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • You are a very superficial person and if your husband desires of your makeup then he doesn't love you nearly as much as you think.  the example you two provide to your children is harming their souls.

    You don't know the particulars of the situation.  It's possible that the husband might love the wife just the same ... with or without makeup, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't find her more attractive if she wore nice clothes (vs. some grungy rags) or, alternatively, put on some makeup.  People need to stop making snap judgments based on very little information.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #39 on: January 24, 2019, 10:19:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Actually my husband loves me no matter how I look. He’s been there through the worst of it (labor, flu, and migraine days. When our house was being worked on and I hadn’t been able to clean up for a few days Because men were in, and out all day and I had to keep the kiddos away/busy) I just care about looking my best for him, and making him proud. If I’m looking like a haggered mess then I’m not showing much respect for him by not trying to tidying up, and make myself look presentable to him. Of course he shouldn’t leave me because I have a bad day, but honestly, if I girl cares very little about her appearance she will care very little about housework, and the children. Especially the husband. You shouldn’t look like a drag queen, but you should care enough to do something.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #40 on: January 24, 2019, 10:23:41 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Beauty is not who you are on the outside, it is the wisdom and time you gave away to save another struggling soul like you.
     
     https://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2015/09/02/top-7-bible-verses-about-vanity/
     
     Last paragraph:
     "Egotism, narcissism, pride and vanity all keep the focus of our lives on ourselves and on our own looks, money, and accomplishments. This, however, is very shallow and meaningless in the end. Our life matters so much more when we put God in the center and do things his way. Then all of our insecurities and doubts are dismissed in the greater context of the true meaning of life."
    Right, then why should men shave or dress well? You don't *need* to shave or *need* to wear a well-fitted suit. 
    And why keep a tidy home? Is that not just vanity in one's home? Do you really NEED to paint your walls? It's just appearance after all. 
    My point is, clearly there's a difference between trying to look nice and presentable and trying to look like a prostitute.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41899
    • Reputation: +23942/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #41 on: January 24, 2019, 10:46:55 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Right, then why should men shave or dress well? You don't *need* to shave or *need* to wear a well-fitted suit.
    And why keep a tidy home? Is that not just vanity in one's home? Do you really NEED to paint your walls? It's just appearance after all.
    My point is, clearly there's a difference between trying to look nice and presentable and trying to look like a prostitute.

    Right, and that was my point also.  Each woman of course has to be on alert against vanity ... but that's something for the individual to work out with her spiritual director.  But women by nature want to look good, so there's often a very fine line between the simple natural urge and vanity.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #42 on: January 24, 2019, 10:54:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Right, and that was my point also.  Each woman of course has to be on alert against vanity ... but that's something for the individual to work out with her spiritual director.  But women by nature want to look good, so there's often a very fine line between the simple natural urge and vanity.
    Hygiene and grooming should not be confounded with cosmetics.
    They are not at all the same.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41899
    • Reputation: +23942/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #43 on: January 24, 2019, 10:57:47 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Hygiene and grooming should not be confounded with cosmetics.
    They are not at all the same.

    They most certainly can be.  Depending on how it's done, cosmetics and grooming can have the same intent and the same outcome, and consequently they're morally equivalent.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #44 on: January 24, 2019, 11:21:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • They most certainly can be.  Depending on how it's done, cosmetics and grooming can have the same intent and the same outcome, and consequently they're morally equivalent.
    Whatever the subjective intent in cosmetics application may be, it is still objectively different than grooming and hygiene: 
    By the latter is understood any of the following: Bathing, cutting or combing hair, shaving, cutting nails, wearing proper attire, etc.
    These practices are how a civilized and Catholic person presents their best self to the world:
    There is nothing artificial added.
    Cosmetics, on the other hand, present purely artificial enhancement or masking techniques which always imply a desire to present a false self to the world.
    The difference between grooming and hygiene on the one hand, and cosmetic use on the other, could not be clearer.
    I almost get the sense that some have confounded the two because of long years of acceptance (ie., after my shower, I put on my makeup, therefore it is all hygiene/grooms no), or, in desiring to make the two equivalent (and therefore permissible), seek to blur the distinction.