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Author Topic: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin  (Read 25852 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
« Reply #255 on: January 28, 2019, 12:19:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 11:58:35 AM
    Lol, in your first long-winded attempt, you would have us accept your unqualified and biased interpretation of St Thomas over that of a doctor of the Church’s, and in your 2nd miserable attempt, you seem to imply that either St Alphonsus falsified tge quote, or didn’t understand what he read?

    You need to get over yourself.

    No, you splatter something that's interpolated with your own editorial comments and where it cannot be determined what was being quoted from St. Thomas, what was his interpretation of St. Thomas, and what are your own false interpretations (such as not mortal = venial).  Give a full reference to the original works of St. Alphonsus and not some page number to a translation that people may or may not have access to.
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #256 on: January 28, 2019, 12:22:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 28, 2019, 12:07:10 PM
    Ah, OK, so citing the full text of St. Thomas is my being long-winded.

    There's no interpretation about it.  St. Thomas clearly lays out the conditions under which wearing makeup (moderately) entails NO SIN whatsoever, not mortal, not venial.

    1) in order to please their husbands
    2) following custom
    3) to conceal defects
    4) maintain the fitness of their state (such as to look good and "put together" so as not to have people think that their husband can't provide for them if they look disheveled ... i.e. look like trailer trash)
    Your citation of Thomas is the same one Alphonsus is commenting on when he observes St Thomas in his commentary on Timothy precluding the use of makeup and declaring it sinful in all cases.  
    So by pointing out the commentary either Alphonsus is pointing out a contradiction in Thomas, or he is saying the Salamancans et al have not understood him.
    In any case, what is clear in Alphonsus is that all moralists therein acknowledge the sinfulness of makeup to one degree or another.
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #257 on: January 28, 2019, 12:26:20 PM »
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    • In a couple hours I will upload pics of the relevant pages from St Alphonsus 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #258 on: January 28, 2019, 12:27:03 PM »
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    • With regard to the section that St. Alphonsus seems to be referencing, St. Thomas in turn quotes St. Augustine:

    Quote
    I doubt whether even their husbands are willing to be deceived by it, by whom alone" (i.e. the husbands) "are they to be permitted, but not ordered, to adorn themselves."

    So now when husbands don't mind (and even sometimes prefer) that their wives wear makeup?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #259 on: January 28, 2019, 12:30:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 12:22:36 PM
    Your citation of Thomas is the same one Alphonsus is commenting on when he observes St Thomas in his commentary on Timothy precluding the use of makeup and declaring it sinful in all cases.  
    So by pointing out the commentary either Alphonsus is pointing out a contradiction in Thomas, or he is saying the Salamancans et al have not understood him.
    In any case, what is clear in Alphonsus is that all moralists therein acknowledge the sinfulness of makeup to one degree or another.
     
    You are completely wrong.  How many times do I have to point out to you the cases where St. Thomas cites situations or context in which makeup entails no sin whatsoever.  Maybe it's the Salamancans who understood St. Thomas correctly, while St. Alphonsus did not.  It is most certainly not the case that "all moralists" consider makeup to be a sin.  Were the Salamancans themselves not moralists?  If the Salamancans were correct in their interpretation of St. Thomas than they and St. Thomas are opposed to the opinion of St. Alphonsus.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #260 on: January 28, 2019, 12:31:38 PM »
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    • At the VERY LEAST, St. Thomas CLEARLY states that wearing makeup in order to conceal defects is not only not a sin but even commendable.  So the absolute "always" completely flies out the window.
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #261 on: January 28, 2019, 12:35:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 28, 2019, 12:30:02 PM

    You are completely wrong.  How many times do I have to point out to you the cases where St. Thomas cites situations or context in which makeup entails no sin whatsoever.  Maybe it's the Salamancans who understood St. Thomas correctly, while St. Alphonsus did not.  It is most certainly not the case that "all moralists" consider makeup to be a sin.  Were the Salamancans themselves not moralists?  If the Salamancans were correct in their interpretation of St. Thomas than they and St. Thomas are opposed to the opinion of St. Alphonsus.
    “Always” means I’m all cases, not just certain contexts.
    It’s as though you want St Thomas to say, “sinful in all cases EXCEPT...”
    But he doesn’t, at least not in Timothy, and to make him do so is to make him contradict himself.”
    You’ll just have to wait for me to post the pics of the pages.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #262 on: January 28, 2019, 12:42:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 12:35:30 PM
    “Always” means I’m all cases, not just certain contexts.
    It’s as though you want St Thomas to say, “sinful in all cases EXCEPT...”
    But he doesn’t, at least not in Timothy, and to make him do so is to make him contradict himself.”
    You’ll just have to wait for me to post the pics of the pages.

    Yeah, but always is St. Alphonsus' interpretation of St. Thomas, an interpretation with which the Salamancans evidently disagree.  St. Thomas does not use this word, and St. Alphonsus is clearly mistaken in this interpretation because St. Thomas does in fact specifically enumerated conditions in which it's NOT sinful.
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #263 on: January 28, 2019, 12:56:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 28, 2019, 12:42:07 PM
    Yeah, but always is St. Alphonsus' interpretation of St. Thomas, an interpretation with which the Salamancans evidently disagree.  St. Thomas does not use this word, and St. Alphonsus is clearly mistaken in this interpretation because St. Thomas does in fact specifically enumerated conditions in which it's NOT sinful.
    1. You have St Thomas’s commentary on Timothy?  In Latin?  Could you please post it?
    2. If Thomas uses the word “Semper” (“always “), then Alphonsus is correct, and I would be very surprised if Alphonsus made a translation or interpretive error.
    3) it is also possible Thomas changed his opinion on the matter.
    4) in any case it remains clear Alphonsus believes makeup is sinful, an as moralists go, he is greater than St Thomas (whatever ends up being the proper understanding of the latter).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #264 on: January 28, 2019, 01:04:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 12:56:14 PM
    4) in any case it remains clear Alphonsus believes makeup is sinful, an as moralists go, he is greater than St Thomas (whatever ends up being the proper understanding of the latter).

    Based on your citation it's not even clear what St. Alphonsus' own opinion is.  That's why I want to see his text.  It could just be that this is what he's interpreting St. Thomas as saying, while he himself had a more nuanced position.  We can't tell from the citations we're working with right now, which is why I asked to see the entire context.  And you can't just play the "my moralist" is better than "your moralist" card either.  None of these moralists is infallible.

    And it's important to acknowledge also that seeing the Latin would be important.  What does the term "makeup" mean?  What is the original word?  What we call makeup might not be what any of these authorities is even thinking of or writing about.  So the terms of any given argument are also important.  You can't just whip a sentence fragment out there without full context and understanding of the terms and pretend that it ends all debate on the subject.
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #265 on: January 28, 2019, 01:12:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 28, 2019, 01:04:38 PM
    Based on your citation it's not even clear what St. Alphonsus' own opinion is.  That's why I want to see his text.  It could just be that this is what he's interpreting St. Thomas as saying, while he himself had a more nuanced position.  We can't tell from the citations we're working with right now, which is why I asked to see the entire context.  And you can't just play the "my moralist" is better than "your moralist" card either.  None of these moralists is infallible.

    And it's important to acknowledge also that seeing the Latin would be important.  What does the term "makeup" mean?  What is the original word?  What we call makeup might not be what any of these authorities is even thinking of or writing about.  So the terms of any given argument are also important.  You can't just whip a sentence fragment out there without full context and understanding of the terms and pretend that it ends all debate on the subject.
    Alphonsus is quoting Thomas, not interpreting him, but you’ll see it soon enough.
    As regards the term “makeup,” the quotes in this thread make it clear we are talking about the same thing: face powders and pigments, etc.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #266 on: January 28, 2019, 01:38:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 01:12:53 PM
    As regards the term “makeup,” the quotes in this thread make it clear we are talking about the same thing: face powders and pigments, etc.

    Ah, but what kind of powders and pigments?  Various bright colors?  White look like Geisha girls wear?  Are we even talking about natural colors?  That's important because if the objection is being "contrary to nature", are we talking about pigmentation that doesn't look normal human?  If we need to stay COMPLETELY natural, then men should not shave, and people should not wear deodorant.
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #267 on: January 28, 2019, 02:19:35 PM »
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    • I am not the main anonymous poster here. I have posted only twice here.

    Ladlislaus claiming that it was in St. Alphonsus' society is very reminiscent of modernists talking about how Church teaching was for before Vatican II and now we need a new one.

    People should also bear in mind that this is the same Ladislaus who also denies the Church teaching on the coporoal discipline of women in marriage.

    I call his judgment into question.
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #268 on: January 28, 2019, 02:46:54 PM »
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    • Apparently, I cannot copy/paste pics from my desktop to CI, but have to upload each of the 10 individual pics/jpeg's.

    I think that means that those who are not logged in will not be able to see them, and will also make it cuмbersome because the reader will not be able to simply scroll down from one pic/page to the next, but will have to be continually opening/closing pages/docuмents.

    Matthew: Is there a better way to do this?
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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #269 on: January 28, 2019, 02:59:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 02:19:35 PM

    Ladlislaus claiming that it was in St. Alphonsus' society is very reminiscent of modernists talking about how Church teaching was for before Vatican II and now we need a new one.
    What does Catholic Church Teaching have to do with cosmetics?

    Makeup has exsisted from as far back as ancient historians could find, so it’s not going anywhere, sorry. 
    Ingredients and applications have changed over the centuries, some were very controversial such as blood letting and leaches for looking paler. Poisons like arsenic and lead were used in makeup during certain periods also. These were dangerous and discouraged by many including church leaders and nobles. (Note: no dogmas by any of the popes in history that I am aware of)

    Beauty products have changed since the Middle Ages, and St Thomas’ time in the 1200’s, so frankly there is no comparison. 

    If you had the common sense to look up what you are commenting about you could form a better argument. 
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