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Author Topic: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin  (Read 26177 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
« Reply #150 on: January 27, 2019, 09:16:31 AM »
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  • I didn't really want to comment on this thread but I think I need to.
    I have seen a lot of young ladies at my old trad community that were quite feminine, HOLY and lovely in their demeanor and actions, but I wish I had a dollar for every time they were passed over by young trad men in favor of the new attractive girl on the block .These young ladies would make wonderful wives and mothers, but they are usually never approached.They may be considered "plain", but never ugly! It's apparent that men are not necessarily looking for holiness as their primary trait in a spouse, but they are certainly looking for attractiveness, as implied even in this thread. I'm not a feminist but i find referring to trad women as numbers ("She's a 10- she's a five")a bit revolting and I'm surprised I'm even reading this here. Why don't you go get a veterinarian and have their teeth checked while you're at it? Not a lot of respect and dignity
    The girls that are always ignored "get it". They know the score. Beauty is the #1 way to catch a prospective husband. Can you imagine the rejection/dejection some of these ladies feel? They are trying to do the right thing for God, but it's not enough for the guys. I'm sure many of them would like to get out of bed in the morning, shake their hair and naturally look like ( a young) Christie Brinkley, that's what (ALL) men want, but it's not happening for them. Funny, it's the men who place such a high price on beauty , and I'm not even blaming them for it- it's a natural response. But  then when young ladies try to compete for attention by applying a little make-up ( applied well it DOES improve your looks) it's a sin. I think this thread just proves the point on why some Trad women feel compelled to wear make-up especially if they are not 8 and 1/2's!!
    I think I might have had to wait all the way until kindergarten or 1st grade before I understood "two wrongs don't make a right."
    Your whole degrading argument amounts to this: The ends justify the means.
    You are essentially advocating that fine and holy women consciously degrade themselves in order to catch a husband.
    You would have them trade their dignity for vanity.
    That's a bad trade.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #151 on: January 27, 2019, 09:21:24 AM »
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  • I didn't really want to comment on this thread but I think I need to.
    I have seen a lot of young ladies at my old trad community that were quite feminine, HOLY and lovely in their demeanor and actions, but I wish I had a dollar for every time they were passed over by young trad men in favor of the new attractive girl on the block .These young ladies would make wonderful wives and mothers, but they are usually never approached.They may be considered "plain", but never ugly! It's apparent that men are not necessarily looking for holiness as their primary trait in a spouse, but they are certainly looking for attractiveness, as implied even in this thread. I'm not a feminist but i find referring to trad women as numbers ("She's a 10- she's a five")a bit revolting and I'm surprised I'm even reading this here. Why don't you go get a veterinarian and have their teeth checked while you're at it? Not a lot of respect and dignity
    The girls that are always ignored "get it". They know the score. Beauty is the #1 way to catch a prospective husband. Can you imagine the rejection/dejection some of these ladies feel? They are trying to do the right thing for God, but it's not enough for the guys. I'm sure many of them would like to get out of bed in the morning, shake their hair and naturally look like ( a young) Christie Brinkley, that's what (ALL) men want, but it's not happening for them. Funny, it's the men who place such a high price on beauty , and I'm not even blaming them for it- it's a natural response. But  then when young ladies try to compete for attention by applying a little make-up ( applied well it DOES improve your looks) it's a sin. I think this thread just proves the point on why some Trad women feel compelled to wear make-up especially if they are not 8 and 1/2's!!
    Where your heart breaks to see them passed over, my heart breaks to see holy women encouraged and tempted to degrade themselves.


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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #152 on: January 27, 2019, 09:27:56 AM »
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  • Young men and women today need to be patient: Finding the right spouse amidst immodest fashions and the crisis in the Church has considerably contracted the pool of worthy spouses.  It might mean not marrying until your 30's until the right guy/gal comes along.  

    A man who marries 80% for looks will be willing to accept various compromises in his marriage in order to hold it together (i.e., there will be differences in things which matter most).

    A woman who degrades herself to catch a man will suffer the same fate.

    "Nothing begun so poorly can end well" -St. Augustine

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #153 on: January 27, 2019, 09:32:05 AM »
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  • Young men and women today need to be patient: Finding the right spouse amidst immodest fashions and the crisis in the Church has considerably contracted the pool of worthy spouses.  It might mean not marrying until your 30's until the right guy/gal comes along.  

    A man who marries 80% for looks will be willing to accept various compromises in his marriage in order to hold it together (i.e., there will be differences in things which matter most).

    A woman who degrades herself to catch a man will suffer the same fate.

    "Nothing begun so poorly can end well" -St. Augustine
    This makes me wonder if it explains why there is so much modernism and worldliness on many younger SSPX marriages?
    Men who married for looks may have not really married a traditionalist at all, but simply the daughter of a traditionalist who happened to go to the same church, but who never shared her father's attitudes.
    Does this partially explain who so many traddy women wear makeup, pants, have TV's in their houses, and practice NFP, etc?

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #154 on: January 27, 2019, 10:05:56 AM »
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  • Catholic beauty: Well-dressed; pretty; dignified comportment; well-groomed and clean; modest.




    VS


    Sex Appeal (which is what most cosmetic advocates are really referring to when using the word "beauty"):





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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #155 on: January 27, 2019, 10:37:47 AM »
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  • The article linked below from the conciliar National Catholic Register, despite being tinged by a bit of personalism, still hits close to the mark, then sinks the dagger at the end, and definitively settles the issue:

    A quote from Alphonsus Liguori's Theologia Moralis:

    "[We] excuse from mortal sin those who because of a local custom expose their breasts, or use makeup, pigments or fake hair, so long as they are doing it only to appear more beautiful, not out of a lascivious motive, or with some other mortally sinful intent, or if there is a particular law prohibiting something in particular under pain of mortal sin. (Moral Theology, Book 2, Treatise 3, On Charity, Chapter 2.54)"

    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/sspencer/cosmetics-and-the-objectification-of-women

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #156 on: January 27, 2019, 10:38:44 AM »
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  • The article linked below from the conciliar National Catholic Register, despite being tinged by a bit of personalism, still hits close to the mark, then sinks the dagger at the end, and definitively settles the issue:

    A quote from Alphonsus Liguori's Theologia Moralis:

    "[We] excuse from mortal sin those who because of a local custom expose their breasts, or use makeup, pigments or fake hair, so long as they are doing it only to appear more beautiful, not out of a lascivious motive, or with some other mortally sinful intent, or if there is a particular law prohibiting something in particular under pain of mortal sin. (Moral Theology, Book 2, Treatise 3, On Charity, Chapter 2.54)"

    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/sspencer/cosmetics-and-the-objectification-of-women
    In other words, the use of makeup is always at least venial.
    Case closed/lock thread.

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #157 on: January 27, 2019, 12:06:18 PM »
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  • First, regarding the NCR citation from St. Alphonsus: 

    The quotation can be found in Grant's English-language translation in Vol. I, p. 583.  However, it is not St. Alphonsus's own opinion, but his commentary on the opinion of Cajetan and Navarre.  He says their opinion is that "they seem to teach that they [those women described in the NCR quote] are only held under venial sin (but less probably), when in a particular case a fall is foreseen..." [i.e., by scandal].

    So, what does St. Alphonsus himself actually hold to be the true position?

    He gives the principle on p. 581:

    "54.  A woman that probably foresees from her dress, even if it is suited to her state, that someone in particular is going to fall mortally, she is held to not wear it for a short time, or to flee the sight of such a man."

    OK, so that is about immodest dress.  We are talking about makeup, so is the quote/principle still pertinent?

    It would seem yes, because in the very next paragraph he cites the Salamancans, Cajetan, Trull, Paulus, and Navarre all appealing to the quote from St. Thomas Aquinas (from the first page of this thread), which discussed dress to please the husband, but also makeup to please him.

    Alphonsus then opposes not only all their appeals to St. Thomas, but opposes St. Thomas himself, stating:

    "Note, however, here what St. Thomas teaches in 2.2 qu 169, art. 2, where he says women desiring to please men from vanity only sin venally whenever they do it [Note that St. Alphonsus is saying that even St. Thomas believed this was venial sin].  But in his commentary on the first epistle to Timothy, chapter 2, the Angelic doctor so speaks: 'simple dress, with right intention, custom and condition of state preserved, is not a sin.  But with regard to make-up it is always a sin; for women are not permitted to be elegantly dressed except on account of men, and men refuse to be deceived, as a powdered woman would appear to him." (Vol. 1, p. 582)

    In other words, St. Alphonsus is opposing the Salamancans, Cajetan, et al, by pointing out to them that although St. Thomas gives women some leeway in dress for their husbands, St. Thomas (and St. Alphonsus) do NOT do so in the case of makeup.

    Alphonsus then quotes the opinions of still more doctors: 

    "Azor, Lessius, and Bonacina excuse them from mortal sin [not venial] who by the custom of the place uncover half the breast, or use powder, makeup, or wigs; provided that they only intend greater adornment of beauty, not wantonness for others, without any other end that would be mortal...Nevertheless, they add that the custom of uncovering their breast, or only lightly covering them iss a grave matter and a mortal sin where it is not introduced.  (p. 583) 

    Consequently (and keeping in mind that the popes have declared that anyone may be guided by the principles of St. Alphonsus's Theologia Moralis without fear), it seems that unless I have somehow misread Alphonsus, it seems that there is unanimity among the moralists that wearing makeup is at least venially sinful.


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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #158 on: January 27, 2019, 12:16:10 PM »
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  • First, regarding the NCR citation from St. Alphonsus:

    The quotation can be found in Grant's English-language translation in Vol. I, p. 583.  However, it is not St. Alphonsus's own opinion, but his commentary on the opinion of Cajetan and Navarre.  He says their opinion is that "they seem to teach that they [those women described in the NCR quote] are only held under venial sin (but less probably), when in a particular case a fall is foreseen..." [i.e., by scandal].

    So, what does St. Alphonsus himself actually hold to be the true position?

    He gives the principle on p. 581:

    "54.  A woman that probably foresees from her dress, even if it is suited to her state, that someone in particular is going to fall mortally, she is held to not wear it for a short time, or to flee the sight of such a man."

    OK, so that is about immodest dress.  We are talking about makeup, so is the quote/principle still pertinent?

    It would seem yes, because in the very next paragraph he cites the Salamancans, Cajetan, Trull, Paulus, and Navarre all appealing to the quote from St. Thomas Aquinas (from the first page of this thread), which discussed dress to please the husband, but also makeup to please him.

    Alphonsus then opposes not only all their appeals to St. Thomas, but opposes St. Thomas himself, stating:

    "Note, however, here what St. Thomas teaches in 2.2 qu 169, art. 2, where he says women desiring to please men from vanity only sin venally whenever they do it [Note that St. Alphonsus is saying that even St. Thomas believed this was venial sin].  But in his commentary on the first epistle to Timothy, chapter 2, the Angelic doctor so speaks: 'simple dress, with right intention, custom and condition of state preserved, is not a sin.  But with regard to make-up it is always a sin; for women are not permitted to be elegantly dressed except on account of men, and men refuse to be deceived, as a powdered woman would appear to him." (Vol. 1, p. 582)

    In other words, St. Alphonsus is opposing the Salamancans, Cajetan, et al, by pointing out to them that although St. Thomas gives women some leeway in dress for their husbands, St. Thomas (and St. Alphonsus) do NOT do so in the case of makeup.

    Alphonsus then quotes the opinions of still more doctors:

    "Azor, Lessius, and Bonacina excuse them from mortal sin [not venial] who by the custom of the place uncover half the breast, or use powder, makeup, or wigs; provided that they only intend greater adornment of beauty, not wantonness for others, without any other end that would be mortal...Nevertheless, they add that the custom of uncovering their breast, or only lightly covering them iss a grave matter and a mortal sin where it is not introduced.  (p. 583)

    Consequently (and keeping in mind that the popes have declared that anyone may be guided by the principles of St. Alphonsus's Theologia Moralis without fear), it seems that unless I have somehow misread Alphonsus, it seems that there is unanimity among the moralists that wearing makeup is at least venially sinful.
    I posted, and now corrected the above (see lineout).
    Where St. Alphonsus and St. Thomas are in agreement that something is always a sin, you can be pretty sure they are correct.

    Offline claudel

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #159 on: January 27, 2019, 04:50:36 PM »
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  • This from the man who believes in evolution and women in pants?
    Pot, meet kettle!

    You are a typical mudslinging coward who hides behind the veil of anonymity. You lack the learning and the courage to step out from behind the veil and identify yourself.

    Cry "Lord, Lord" all you want. Only your fellow cowards are deceived by your moral preening.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #160 on: January 27, 2019, 05:33:44 PM »
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  • Hilarious to watch how people are trying to explain away very clear teachings. And then resort to nastiness when they're pinned into a corner about it.


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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #161 on: January 27, 2019, 05:45:47 PM »
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  • You are a typical mudslinging coward who hides behind the veil of anonymity. You lack the learning and the courage to step out from behind the veil and identify yourself.

    Cry "Lord, Lord" all you want. Only your fellow cowards are deceived by your moral preening.
    Hi Claudel-
    May I presume Claudel is your real name?  Care to provide your real full name?
    If not, please silence yourself according to your own condemnation.

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #162 on: January 27, 2019, 05:46:46 PM »
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  • Hilarious to watch how people are trying to explain away very clear teachings. And then resort to nastiness when they're pinned into a corner about it.
    This!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #163 on: January 27, 2019, 06:01:46 PM »
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  • But cosmetics, by the repeated admissions of its users, reflect either carnal or vain motives (ie., makes me feel better because others will think better of me).

    There is no sin in wanting people to think well of you.  In fact, people are entitled in justice to their good reputation, which is why detraction and calumny can be grave sins (depending on the degree).  Some of the saints deliberately sought humiliations in order to attain a higher degree of perfection and complete renunciation of self, but these types of heroic deeds are not required under pain of sin ... and that's your core error, attempting to cast something that at best might be an imperfection as sin.  Perpetual celibacy too is a higher calling than the married state, but not all are called to that.

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    Re: Women Who Wear ANY Makeup Sin
    « Reply #164 on: January 27, 2019, 06:02:15 PM »
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  • Hi Claudel-
    May I presume Claudel is your real name?  Care to provide your real full name?
    If not, please silence yourself according to your own condemnation.

    Typical conduct of a smug, infantile fraud—you won't reveal your CathInfo handle, so you resort to a combination of virtue-signaling and sticking out your ugly tongue, just like a spoiled three-year-old—or else a twenty-year-old closet queen. Which are you then? Hmm? You aren't an adult and definitely not a real man.

    I note, too, that your amen corner chimed right in. Or was that simply you again, pretending to be multiple anonymous cowards?

    Or is it just you, Neil, being Neil yet again?