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Author Topic: SSPX Offering Mass at Eastern Rite Church Regularly?  (Read 1146 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: SSPX Offering Mass at Eastern Rite Church Regularly?
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2019, 11:04:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 22, 2019, 10:53:36 PM
    Is there any evidence that they are interacting in any meaningful way with the "Modernist" Ukrainians?  Unless you have such evidence, there's nothing wrong with using their church.  It's better than renting a hotel room.

    Some Eastern Rite churches have "missions" where they simply use the church building of a Novus Ordo church, say, at 3PM on a Sunday because their congregation is too small to be able to afford/finance.  People go there for their Liturgy at 3PM and then leave.  There's no meaningful interaction between them and the Latin Rite parishioners.

    So, unless you have proof that there's more than this going on, you're just spreading nonsense.

    My experience with Ukrainian Catholics, however, is that the vast majority of them still have the Catholic faith.  They're no more "Modernist" than any typical U.S. Roman Rite parish might have been in the 1940s.  To be frank, very few of them pay much attention to Vatican II.  Do they share some of the same thinking?  Sure, but no more than any liberal pre-Vatican II parish might have.
    Did you really just say the conciliar Ukrainians are equivalent to 1940s Catholics??
    I believe they call that talking out of your posterior.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Offering Mass at Eastern Rite Church Regularly?
    « Reply #16 on: September 22, 2019, 11:11:59 PM »
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    • Quote
    Is there any evidence that they are interacting in any meaningful way with the "Modernist" Ukrainians?  Unless you have such evidence, there's nothing wrong with using their church.  It's better than renting a hotel room.
    I don't know anything about the modernist ukrainian rite, but if it's similar to the novus ordo, then Fr Wathen argued that the novus ordo's systematic sacrilege would make these churches desecrated and unholy.  He argued that this is another reason to avoid the indult - because canon law does not allow the offering of mass in an unholy or unconsecrated church/chapel.  And indults are 99% of the time offered in the same church as novus ordo services.
    .
    Judging by this guideline, a hotel room would be preferable because it's not desecrated.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Offering Mass at Eastern Rite Church Regularly?
    « Reply #17 on: September 22, 2019, 11:15:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 22, 2019, 11:11:59 PM
    I don't know anything about the modernist ukrainian rite, but if it's similar to the novus ordo, ...

    Let me stop you there.  It's not.  It's essentially the Liturgy of Sts. John Chrysostom and St. Basil.  Only modernization that ever happened was some slight changes to various melodies in the vernacular English version.  And the English translation of the words of consecration have always been "for you and for many".

    Now, the Maronite Rite is different, as they've Novus Ordized their Liturgy ... but they have always, more than any of the Eastern Rites, followed the lead of Rome, for good or for ill.

    If it means anything, even the Dimonds would sneak into Eastern Rite churches to receive the Sacraments.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Offering Mass at Eastern Rite Church Regularly?
    « Reply #18 on: September 22, 2019, 11:24:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on September 22, 2019, 11:04:17 PM
    Did you really just say the conciliar Ukrainians are equivalent to 1940s Catholics??
    I believe they call that talking out of your posterior.

    What I said is that they are no more MODERNIST than your typical 1940s Catholics.

    Now, if you object to this because you don't believe that 1940s Catholics were largely Modernist, well, then you're dumber even than your posts make you sound.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Offering Mass at Eastern Rite Church Regularly?
    « Reply #19 on: September 23, 2019, 12:37:23 AM »
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    Let me stop you there.  It's not.  It's essentially the Liturgy of Sts. John Chrysostom and St. Basil.  Only modernization that ever happened was some slight changes to various melodies in the vernacular English version.  And the English translation of the words of consecration have always been "for you and for many".

    Now, the Maronite Rite is different, as they've Novus Ordized their Liturgy ... but they have always, more than any of the Eastern Rites, followed the lead of Rome, for good or for ill.
    Great to know.  Thx.
    .
    I would still argue that the new-sspx is wrong for having mass in a desecrated (probably not even consecrated properly) novus ordo "building" (can you even call it a church?).  But that's another topic.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Offering Mass at Eastern Rite Church Regularly?
    « Reply #20 on: September 23, 2019, 08:06:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 23, 2019, 12:37:23 AM
    Great to know.  Thx.
    .
    I would still argue that the new-sspx is wrong for having mass in a desecrated (probably not even consecrated properly) novus ordo "building" (can you even call it a church?).  But that's another topic.

    Right.  I don't disagree with that.  There are some cases, however, where, let's say an SSPX priest were visiting some historically-Catholic iconic places (churches) in Europe, where they try to make a "statement", as it were, of wanting to reclaim for Catholicism somethings that rightly belongs to the Church and Tradition rather than to the Conciliar usurpers.  So, for instance, if a priest could offer a Traditional Mass at the main altar at St. Peter's, would you say it's wrong to do so because of the Novus Ordo desecration?

    I somehow feel that the Novus Ordo being offered in a Catholic church is a bit different than, say, if some Muslims or Hindus or Jєωs started having services there.  But I have nothing theological to base this on, just a gut feel.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Offering Mass at Eastern Rite Church Regularly?
    « Reply #21 on: September 23, 2019, 08:09:18 AM »
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    • Now, a lot of the more extreme Traditional Catholics would place the Catholic Eastern Rites categorically in the condition of being non-Catholic.  Certainly I think it would be wrong and scandalous to have a Catholic Mass in some Orthodox schismatic church building.  But I just cannot put the Eastern Rite Catholics into this same category.  They PROFESS the Catholic faith ... whereas the Orthodox publicly repudiate it.  This has to count for something to distinguish them from the Orthodox.  That is why to me to say simply that the Conciliar Church is a non-Catholic sect ... that's a gross oversimplificatoin.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Offering Mass at Eastern Rite Church Regularly?
    « Reply #22 on: September 23, 2019, 09:34:44 AM »
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    • Quote
    So, for instance, if a priest could offer a Traditional Mass at the main altar at St. Peter's, would you say it's wrong to do so because of the Novus Ordo desecration?
    Well, if we believe that Malachi Martin's books are mostly factual, and if a satanic rite was done in St Peters, then yes, such a place is desecrated for the time being.  But I can't prove this either way.
    .
    If I were a priest, i'd not offer a latin mass in any novus ordo church, however beautiful it was, until some exorcism prayers were done and other blessings that a normal Trad priest could do on his own (presuming there was not a Trad bishop available to do something more substantial).
    .
    I believe that a novus ordo is a sacrilege so I'm just being honest and logical, based on this foundational view.  I could be wrong of course.  But I think God would appreciate the caution used, even if my views were proven extreme. 
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