Author Topic: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?  (Read 1729 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2017, 12:07:21 PM »
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  • Again, this is Puritanism with a Catholic veneer. You can always recognize it by the primary idea: that sex is something bad, something dirty, something to be avoided for its own sake. On the contrary, sex in itself is something GOOD, having been created by a perfect God. He designed it. It is good and beautiful. It is only the devil's warping of marital love into selfish lust, promiscuity, and other degradations (homosexuality, etc.) that is evil.

    Yes, Traditional Catholics need to be reminded of this.  What happened in Trad circles is that, because many in the Novus Ordo have taken this Catholic notion that sex is good and have extended it as justification for sexual immorality, some Traditional Catholics push back on it ... but, by doing so, end up sliding more to the Puritan end of the spectrum.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #16 on: November 02, 2017, 12:08:50 PM »
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  • You seem to have an unhealthy fascination with sex, not unlike a certain "Heitanen" who started a whole website to preach his heresy. He is a single man, a recent convert (he was a protestant just a few years ago) and his new doctrine is that sexual pleasure is forbidden even to the lawfully married. He teaches that "what must be done" must be done as quickly and efficiently as possible, with no undue incitement of the passions in the process. In the dark, completely utilitarian, etc. In a word: Puritan. But we all know that Puritanism is a condemned heresy.

    Yeah, probably the same guy coming back as Anonymous.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #17 on: November 02, 2017, 12:15:59 PM »
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  • I have 7 children and I am not ashamed of it because I am following Church teaching.  Consider this quote from Casti Connubii (Pius XI, 1930):

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    11. Thus amongst the blessings of marriage, the child holds the first place. And indeed the Creator of the human race Himself, Who in His goodness wishes to use men as His helpers in the propagation of life, taught this when, instituting marriage in Paradise, He said to our first parents, and through them to all future spouses: "Increase and multiply, and fill the earth."
    [12] As St. Augustine admirably deduces from the words of the holy Apostle Saint Paul to Timothy[13] when he says: "The Apostle himself is therefore a witness that marriage is for the sake of generation: 'I wish,' he says, 'young girls to marry.' And, as if someone said to him, 'Why?,' he immediately adds: 'To bear children, to be mothers of families'."[14]


    12. How great a boon of God this is, and how great a blessing of matrimony is clear from a consideration of man's dignity and of his sublime end. For man surpasses all other visible creatures by the superiority of his rational nature alone. Besides, God wishes men to be born not only that they should live and fill the earth, but much more that they may be worshippers of God, that they may know Him and love Him and finally enjoy Him for ever in heaven; and this end, since man is raised by God in a marvelous way to the supernatural order, surpasses all that eye hath seen, and ear heard, and all that hath entered into the heart of man.[15] From which it is easily seen how great a gift of divine goodness and how remarkable a fruit of marriage are children born by the omnipotent power of God through the cooperation of those bound in wedlock.
    https://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19301231_casti-connubii.html
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Anonymous

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #18 on: November 03, 2017, 11:25:44 AM »
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  • Yes, Traditional Catholics need to be reminded of this.  What happened in Trad circles is that, because many in the Novus Ordo have taken this Catholic notion that sex is good and have extended it as justification for sexual immorality, some Traditional Catholics push back on it ... but, by doing so, end up sliding more to the Puritan end of the spectrum.

    But even within marriage, the Christian fathers’ acceptance of sex was grudging. Influenced by the Stoics, they looked to nature to determine the purpose and moral limits of bodily functions like sex. Therefore, sex within marriage was only moral if it was used for its “natural” purpose of procreation. They taught that Christians were not to have sex for pleasure or when pregnancy was impossible, such as when a woman was already pregnant. [SOURCE]

    The Puritans viewed sex within marriage as a gift of God and as an essential, enjoyable part of marriage. Gouge says that husbands and wives should cohabit “with good will and delight, willingly, readily, and cheerfully.” “They do err,” adds Perkins, “who hold that the secret coming together of man and wife cannot be without sin unless it be done for the procreation of children.” [...] The Puritans took the matrimonial duty of sex so seriously that failure to extend “due benevolence” by either partner could be grounds for church discipline. There is at least one case on record in which a husband was excommunicated for “neglecting his wife” by not having intercourse with her for a long period of time. [SOURCE]

    Who's being a Puritan here?  :confused:

    Offline reconquest

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #19 on: November 03, 2017, 11:26:11 AM »
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  • Forgot to check the box, last post was me.
    "There's a mix of passion and shortsightedness in me, even when I'm positive that I'm doing my very best to see things for what they are, that warns me that I'll never know for sure. Undoubtedly I must follow the truth I can see, I have no choice and I must live on; but that is for me only, not to impose on others." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #20 on: November 03, 2017, 12:00:12 PM »
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  • But even within marriage, the Christian fathers’ acceptance of sex was grudging. Influenced by the Stoics, they looked to nature to determine the purpose and moral limits of bodily functions like sex. Therefore, sex within marriage was only moral if it was used for its “natural” purpose of procreation. They taught that Christians were not to have sex for pleasure or when pregnancy was impossible, such as when a woman was already pregnant. [SOURCE]

    The author quoted here, Patricia Miller, is a member of the pro-abortion organization "Catholics for Choice".  She is a former editor of their official publication.  I do not consider her an unbiased, trustworthy, or credible source of information about Catholic teaching.

    In my last post, I quoted a papal encyclical which made it very clear that the OP of this thread takes a position opposed to Catholic teaching.  Support from an abortion proponent is not an argument that stands against a statement from Pius XI.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Anonymous

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #21 on: November 03, 2017, 12:18:25 PM »
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  • It's not even right to say that the Fathers taught that sex should not be "had" for pleasure.

    The typical texts used by liberals and by people like Heitanen (such as St. Augustine's) say that sexual activity that is motivated exclusively by lust is at least venially sinful.  And theologians still taught that, up until Vatican II.  But this is not the same as saying that sexual activity that one takes pleasure in or even anticipates is sinful, nor is it the same thing as saying that sexual activity must be accompanied by some continual and persistent internal recitation of "I want to have children I want to have children I want to have children", etc.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #22 on: November 03, 2017, 12:18:37 PM »
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  • It's not even right to say that the Fathers taught that sex should not be "had" for pleasure.

    The typical texts used by liberals and by people like Heitanen (such as St. Augustine's) say that sexual activity that is motivated exclusively by lust is at least venially sinful.  And theologians still taught that, up until Vatican II.  But this is not the same as saying that sexual activity that one takes pleasure in or even anticipates is sinful, nor is it the same thing as saying that sexual activity must be accompanied by some continual and persistent internal recitation of "I want to have children I want to have children I want to have children", etc.
    This is me.  Forgot the box.
    More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #23 on: November 03, 2017, 02:13:07 PM »
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  • Exactly, Mith.  This sort of author has the goal of undermining Church authority by portraying Catholic teaching as unreasonable and changeable. This particular author undermines Church authority in order to promote abortion. Her interpretation of the Church Fathers has an evil agenda and cannot be trusted. When compared against the actual writings it is seen to be innaccurate. 
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline reconquest

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #24 on: November 03, 2017, 04:07:08 PM »
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  • I was aware that the first excerpt came from a dodgy source (vice often renders homage to virtue), but it accurately sums up the mind of the Church Fathers on this matter. My point stands: adherents of '50s-ist porno-theology like Matthew and the Puritans of yesteryear are on the same side here, in opposition to genuine Catholic tradition.
    "There's a mix of passion and shortsightedness in me, even when I'm positive that I'm doing my very best to see things for what they are, that warns me that I'll never know for sure. Undoubtedly I must follow the truth I can see, I have no choice and I must live on; but that is for me only, not to impose on others." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #25 on: November 03, 2017, 04:37:18 PM »
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  • I was aware that the first excerpt came from a dodgy source (vice often renders homage to virtue), but it accurately sums up the mind of the Church Fathers on this matter. My point stands: adherents of '50s-ist porno-theology like Matthew and the Puritans of yesteryear are on the same side here, in opposition to genuine Catholic tradition.
    I think that Pius XI is a better judge of the mind of the Church Fathers than you or your abortion proponent source are. 
    Are you seriously claiming that Casti Connubii was in opposition to genuine Catholic tradition?
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Anonymous

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #26 on: November 05, 2017, 05:34:49 PM »
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  • Wasn't aware that Pius XI said anything along these lines:

    Again, this is Puritanism with a Catholic veneer. You can always recognize it by the primary idea: that sex is something bad, something dirty, something to be avoided for its own sake. On the contrary, sex in itself is something GOOD, having been created by a perfect God. He designed it. It is good and beautiful. It is only the devil's warping of marital love into selfish lust, promiscuity, and other degradations (homosexuality, etc.) that is evil.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #27 on: November 05, 2017, 06:58:19 PM »
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  • Wasn't aware that Pius XI said anything along these lines:

    Again, this is Puritanism with a Catholic veneer. You can always recognize it by the primary idea: that sex is something bad, something dirty, something to be avoided for its own sake. On the contrary, sex in itself is something GOOD, having been created by a perfect God. He designed it. It is good and beautiful. It is only the devil's warping of marital love into selfish lust, promiscuity, and other degradations (homosexuality, etc.) that is evil.
     Casti Connubii was very clear that there are secondary ends of the marriage act "such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence" as well as the primary end of having children. It does indeed follow from this that sex is not something bad, dirty or to be avoided.

    Matthew may have used the word "puritan" in a figurative rather than literal way, but what he wrote is consistent with Casti Connubii  (unlike the OP of the this thread).  Matthew's statement is practically a paraphrase of this sentence in CC  "No one can fail to admire the divine Wisdom, Holiness and Goodness which, while respecting the dignity and happiness of husband and wife, has provided so bountifully for the conservation and propagation of the human race by a single chaste and sacred fellowship of nuptial union."

    Anonymous

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #28 on: November 05, 2017, 07:00:15 PM »
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  • Casti Connubii was very clear that there are secondary ends of the marriage act "such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence" as well as the primary end of having children. It does indeed follow from this that sex is not something bad, dirty or to be avoided.

    Matthew may have used the word "puritan" in a figurative rather than literal way, but what he wrote is consistent with Casti Connubii  (unlike the OP of the this thread).  Matthew's statement is practically a paraphrase of this sentence in CC : "No one can fail to admire the divine Wisdom, Holiness and Goodness which, while respecting the dignity and happiness of husband and wife, has provided so bountifully for the conservation and propagation of the human race by a single chaste and sacred fellowship of nuptial union."
    Forgot to click box.   :facepalm:

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Why aren't Catholics ashamed of having large families?
    « Reply #29 on: November 05, 2017, 07:01:19 PM »
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  • And managed to forget again.   :facepalm: :facepalm:
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

     

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