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Author Topic: Who is allowed to drink from the chalice at mass?  (Read 6032 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Who is allowed to drink from the chalice at mass?
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2022, 07:44:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on August 12, 2022, 11:57:43 AM
    Mustum is not “doubtful matter”…. While it is illicit to use the freshly pressed juice of grapes for Mass, it is not doubtful. 

    Only if you believe Ratzinger's 1994 decision.  Prior to that time, the question was disputed among theologians and therefore considered positively doubtful.  Ratzinger's 1994 decision holds little weight for me.  This is the same Vatican that also said, in 2001, that the Assyrian Orthodox liturgy that lacked a consecration was valid, the same Vatican that canonized Roncalli, Montini, and Wojtyla.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Who is allowed to drink from the chalice at mass?
    « Reply #61 on: August 12, 2022, 07:49:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on August 03, 2022, 10:28:24 AM
    I find it difficult to maintain that the Real Presence would suppress whatever allergic reactions one might have, in that this would be suppressing one of the accidents that could cause harm to a person unable to consume one species or the other.  Why would this one accident be suppressed when the others --- taste, smell, natural corruptibility (bread going stale or wine going bad), texture, etc. --- would not be?

    No, the accidents would not be suppressed, but the accidents do not cause harm per se but only per accidens.  In other words, the harm caused is accidental to the accidents themselves, rather than of the essence of the accidents.  There's nothing of the essence of bread that causes allergic reactions.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Who is allowed to drink from the chalice at mass?
    « Reply #62 on: August 12, 2022, 09:45:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 12, 2022, 07:44:24 PM
    Only if you believe Ratzinger's 1994 decision.  Prior to that time, the question was disputed among theologians and therefore considered positively doubtful.  Ratzinger's 1994 decision holds little weight for me.  This is the same Vatican that also said, in 2001, that the Assyrian Orthodox liturgy that lacked a consecration was valid, the same Vatican that canonized Roncalli, Montini, and Wojtyla.
    My understanding is that mustum can be thought of as at least having begun the process of fermentation.  Some time would have to pass, just how much I do not know.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Who is allowed to drink from the chalice at mass?
    « Reply #63 on: August 12, 2022, 10:27:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on August 12, 2022, 09:45:22 PM
    My understanding is that mustum can be thought of as at least having begun the process of fermentation.  Some time would have to pass, just how much I do not know.

    But it's not wine, and so it was disputed among theologians whether it could be valid ... therefore doubtful.  It was only Ratzinger who finally decided that mustum was OK, but his opinion means nothing to me.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Who is allowed to drink from the chalice at mass?
    « Reply #64 on: August 13, 2022, 07:54:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 12, 2022, 10:27:04 PM
    But it's not wine, and so it was disputed among theologians whether it could be valid ... therefore doubtful.  It was only Ratzinger who finally decided that mustum was OK, but his opinion means nothing to me.
    Sorry, but this goes back MUCH farther than Ratzinger:

    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]"Reply to Objection 3. The juice of unripe grapes is at the stage of incomplete generation, and therefore it has not yet the species of wine: on which account it may not be used for this sacrament. Must, however, has already the species of wine, for its sweetness ["Aut dulcis musti Vulcano decoquit humorem"; Virgil, Georg. i, 295] indicates fermentation which is "the result of its natural heat" (Meteor. iv); consequently this sacrament can be made from must. Nevertheless entire grapes ought not to be mixed with this sacrament, because then there would be something else besides wine. It is furthermore forbidden to offer must in the chalice, as soon as it has been squeezed from the grape, since this is unbecoming owing to the impurity of the must. But in case of necessity it may be done: for it is said by the same Pope Julius, in the passage quoted in the argument: "If necessary, let the grape be pressed into the chalice."[/color]


    --St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa III, q74, Art 5.

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