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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on March 22, 2024, 03:19:14 AM
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And is gambling always a venial sin?
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I looked it up....
From the Catholic Dictionary (1958):
BETTING AND GAMBLING: Betting is in itself lawful provided that the subject matter of the bet is not sinful, that neither party is certain of the event, and that both parties understand the bet in the same way. Gambling on games of skill or of chance is lawful provided that both parties are willing to play, even though one of them realizes that he has no chance of success; that cheating and fraud are absent; and that the money staked is not required for payment of debts or to support themselves and their families. Gambling on the stock exchange is lawful unless unjust devices such as causing an artificial rise and fall of prices are employed. Betting and gambling are dangerous, for they easily lead to sin, misery, ruin of self and others. In 1590 Pope Gregory XIV found it necessary to restrain the sporting Romans, by forbidding, on pain of excommunication, all betting on the results of papal elections, the duration of conclaves and the creation of new cardinals.
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I was just thinking that when our Lord was crucified the Romans gambled to see who got His clothes.
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I was just thinking that when our Lord was crucified the Romans gambled to see who got His clothes.
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... and that the money staked is not required for payment of debts or to support themselves and their families ...
This would be the key part. If you get to a point where you're hurting your family if you lose the amount of money you wager, then I imagine it can become a mortal sin if losing the amount of money wagered would have a serious impact on your family and your obligations to them.
I recall a story from Padre Pio's life where (if I recall) he told someone to buy a lottery ticket for some charity (perhaps his hospital) and he won. But I may mis-recall it.
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I was just thinking that when our Lord was crucified the Romans gambled to see who got His clothes.
I'm not sure that would qualify as gambling. They were just drawing lots (or rolling dice or something) to see who would get Our Lord's indivisible garment. I wouldn't consider that gambling. I don't think they were risking anything. Where their sin lay was in theft, since they had no right to Our Lord's property.
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Just my opinion, but there's threshold where stealing becomes mortal. I think it's something like if you steal an avg day's wage? $12/hr x 8 hours = around $100.
Logically, if you're betting something similar, $ wise, it could be considered a mortal sin. ??? I don't know, i'm just trying to come up with a $ amount.
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That was me.
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Yeah, it's a tough one. If I'm very wealthy, wagering $5,000 might be nothing for me ... except that I think one would do better donating the money to charity or to the poor if you really don't need it that much. Some people might consider gambling to be an expensive form of entertainment. Just don't know for sure. Text above only mentioned support for your family and paying debts, but I would think that there might be obligations of charity as well. If I wager $100, I could have donated that to the poor instead ... except you could look at it like, "well, that $100 could turn into $1000 and its loss is not completely certain". It's complicated.
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Yeah, it's a tough one. If I'm very wealthy, wagering $5,000 might be nothing for me
Yes. I wonder if stealing's $ amount would depend on the OTHER person (i.e. you assume the person is not wealthy, so anything stolen of moderate value is mortal), while gambling would depend on YOUR situation (i.e. your daily wage, finances, etc)? I agree, charity would play some part in this.
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I looked it up....
From the Catholic Dictionary (1958):
BETTING AND GAMBLING: Betting is in itself lawful provided that the subject matter of the bet is not sinful, that neither party is certain of the event, and that both parties understand the bet in the same way. Gambling on games of skill or of chance is lawful provided that both parties are willing to play, even though one of them realizes that he has no chance of success; that cheating and fraud are absent; and that the money staked is not required for payment of debts or to support themselves and their families. Gambling on the stock exchange is lawful unless unjust devices such as causing an artificial rise and fall of prices are employed. Betting and gambling are dangerous, for they easily lead to sin, misery, ruin of self and others. In 1590 Pope Gregory XIV found it necessary to restrain the sporting Romans, by forbidding, on pain of excommunication, all betting on the results of papal elections, the duration of conclaves and the creation of new cardinals.
The bolded is interesting. Wouldn't this mean betting and gambling are occasions of sin?
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Betting and gambling are dangerous, for they easily lead to sin, misery, ruin of self and others.
The bolded is interesting. Wouldn't this mean betting and gambling are occasions of sin?
I am guessing it's put that way because it's not always an occasion of sin for everyone, but is mainly for those who tend to be greedy or are afflicted with avarice, which is essentially the love of money for all it can do for one and buy.
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I don't gamble. period. but if some of my friends want to use quarters as "chips", I can't see how that's a sin, even venial.
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Yeah, it's a tough one. If I'm very wealthy, wagering $5,000 might be nothing for me ... except that I think one would do better donating the money to charity or to the poor if you really don't need it that much. Some people might consider gambling to be an expensive form of entertainment. Just don't know for sure. Text above only mentioned support for your family and paying debts, but I would think that there might be obligations of charity as well. If I wager $100, I could have donated that to the poor instead ... except you could look at it like, "well, that $100 could turn into $1000 and its loss is not completely certain". It's complicated.
This logic could also apply to cruises, golf club memberships, jet sky, and other things of the sort, right?
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This logic could also apply to cruises, golf club memberships, jet sky, expensive whisky, and other things of the sort, right? I guess the only thing that distinguishes gambling from those is the fact that gambling can be "scaled down", that is, the entertainment and dangers are accessible to the not-so-rich.
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when does gambling become a mortal sin?
A real life example.
A man I know has now gone before the Judge. He had a faithful wife who was burdened with all the worries of living with a gambler. They had nine children, one of whom died of alcoholism, and one by his own hand.
I don’t know on how many occasions the whole family was forced to move from home to home, because of his gambling, but more than a few.
Gambling irresponsibly is a great cause of suffering and heartache for the loved ones, in fact, a real tragedy.
Gambling is not a good thing. I wonder why are you asking? If it pertains to your own person you should approach your priest.
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when does gambling become a mortal sin?
A real life example.
A man I know has now gone before the Judge. He had a faithful wife who was burdened with all the worries of living with a gambler. They had nine children, one of whom died of alcoholism, and one by his own hand.
I don’t know on how many occasions the whole family was forced to move from home to home, because of his gambling, but more than a few.
Gambling irresponsibly is a great cause of suffering and heartache for the loved ones, in fact, a real tragedy.
Gambling is not a good thing. I wonder why are you asking? If it pertains to your own person you should approach your priest.
Not everyone has a priest that they can ask. And why does it matter why they're asking?
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This logic could also apply to cruises, golf club memberships, jet sky, and other things of the sort, right?
Of course. "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle" and so on.
I don't think any of the things you listed are sinful in and of themselves, but naturally, the more money one has, the more they should be putting towards charitable causes. So someone wasting lots of money on luxuries, of which gambling is one, while not aiding his fellow man, would be sinning.
On the other hand, you can't be expected to spend every cent after necessary expenses/savings on charity. I recall another part of the Gospel where Christ was given an expensive gift and, when a disciple said it could be sold for charity, said "the poor will always be with us" - meaning that no matter how much money you said aside for charity, it will not solve poverty, and that as such there are other uses for money. In that case, it was to show love and appreciation.
Now, gambling doesn't do show love or anything. But - take for example the Wedding at Cana. Not only did Our Lord tolerate that they were drinking wine to be merry - he even topped them up. And our Church similar has not deemed drinking alcohol for merriment as sinful, but rather has only taught that it's sinful in excess. So, a man who meets friends on a Friday and has a few beers, but who does not get overly drunk or spend beyond his means commits no sin. But then, suppose he has one beer less and buys a lotto ticket instead (these things are of roughly equivalent prices, in my country at least) - why would that then suddenly be a sin? He spent the same money either way, and at least with the ticket he may win something.
Based on all that, I can only conclude that gambling is not inherently sinful but only becomes sinful when it either prevents one from using that money for a real need (i.e. supporting their family) or when it becomes excessively wasteful or decadent.
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That was me, woops. Also I made some typos I want to correct but can no longer.
Anyway.
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The bolded is interesting. Wouldn't this mean betting and gambling are occasions of sin?
That's what I'm thinking.
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St. Francis de Sales on gambling:
CHAPTER XXXII. Of Forbidden Amusements.
DICE, cards, and the like games of hazard, are not merely dangerous amusements, like dancing, but they are plainly bad and harmful, and therefore they are forbidden by the civil as by the ecclesiastical law. What harm is there in them? you ask. Such games are unreasonable:—the winner often has neither skill nor industry to boast of, which is contrary to reason. You reply that this is understood by those who play. But though that may prove that you are not wronging anybody, it does not prove that the game is in accordance with reason, as victory ought to be the reward of skill or labour, which it cannot be in mere games of chance. Moreover, though such games may be called a recreation, and are intended as such, they are practically an intense occupation. Is it not an occupation, when a man’s mind is kept on the stretch of close attention, and disturbed by endless anxieties, fears and agitations? Who exercises a more dismal, painful attention than the gambler? No one must speak or laugh,—if you do but cough you will annoy him and his companions. The only pleasure in gambling is to win, and [color=var(--ccel-red)]255 (https://ccel.org/ccel/desales/devout_life/Page_255.html)this cannot be a satisfactory pleasure, since it can only be enjoyed at the expense of your antagonist. Once, when he was very ill, S. Louis heard that his brother the Comte d’Anjou and Messire Gautier de Nemours were gambling, and in spite of his weakness the King tottered into the room where they were, and threw dice and money and everything out of the window, in great indignation. And the pure and pious Sara, in her appeal to God, declared that she had never had dealings with gamblers.[/font][/size][/color]
Taken from here: St. Francis of Sales: Introduction to the Devout Life - Christian Classics Ethereal Library (ccel.org) (https://ccel.org/ccel/desales/devout_life/devout_life.v.xxxii.html)