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Author Topic: What Exactly is the Magisterium?  (Read 9430 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2017, 12:58:40 PM »
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  • The Magisterium is the Church's teaching office.  It doesn't exist without "people."  Mainly, the world's bishops and the pope.
    That is correct, it is the teaching office of the Church, but pope, bishops or priests etc. are not the magisterium.
    Like the office pope has his office, that of the papacy, Magisterium has it's office, that of teaching. This is why Pope Leo XIII says: "If it (the magisterium, the teachings) could in any way be false, an evident contradiction follows; for then God Himself would be the author of error in man."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #16 on: October 24, 2017, 01:04:33 PM »
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  • You over-distinguish.

    An office without an occupant is useless.  A teaching body without teachers is an abuse in terms.  The actual teachings which belong to the magisterium would be gnostic if they were never proposed by those teachers for belief. 


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #17 on: October 24, 2017, 01:04:54 PM »
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  • You over-distinguish.

    An office without an occupant is useless.  A teaching body without teachers is an abuse in terms.  The actual teachings which belong to the magisterium would be gnostic if they were never proposed by those teachers for belief.
    .
    Sorry-- this was me.
    .
    Why is this in the anonymous subforum??
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #18 on: October 24, 2017, 01:08:25 PM »
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  • That is correct, it is the teaching office of the Church, but pope, bishops or priests etc. are not the magisterium.
    Like the office pope has his office, that of the papacy, Magisterium has it's office, that of teaching. This is why Pope Leo XIII says: "If it (the magisterium, the teachings) could in any way be false, an evident contradiction follows; for then God Himself would be the author of error in man."
    Dahh! Can't edit in this forum.
    This is why the Magisterium is infallible - always and everywhere. Because, as Pope Leo XIII states, it, the Magisterium came from Christ, He instituted it. The Magisterium was not ordained, consecrated, elected or appointed. The Magisterium is teachings, not people.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #19 on: October 24, 2017, 01:11:13 PM »
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  • Dahh! Can't edit in this forum.
    This is why the Magisterium is infallible - always and everywhere. Because, as Pope Leo XIII states, it, the Magisterium came from Christ, He instituted it. The Magisterium was not ordained, consecrated, elected or appointed. The Magisterium is teachings, not people.
    .
    The deposit of faith is what Christ handed to the magisterium.
    .
    The magisterium tells us what is and isn't in the deposit of faith.  The magisterium is "people."  It is the teaching office of the Church, which is composed of all legitimate pastors.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #20 on: October 24, 2017, 01:18:05 PM »
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  • .
    The deposit of faith is what Christ handed to the magisterium.
    .
    The magisterium tells us what is and isn't in the deposit of faith.  The magisterium is "people."  It is the teaching office of the Church, which is composed of all legitimate pastors.
    Not so, it is not people - read what Pope Leo said - I posted it. He Instituted the Magisterium. "Christ instituted in the Church a living, authoritative and permanent Magisterium."

    The Magisterium was not ordained, consecrated, elected or appointed, IT was instituted by Christ. The magisterium is teachings - not the hierarchy, not the pope and not even people.

    People are confused on this because being taught error, they think the magisterium being infallible, which it is, is the pope, or the bishops in union with the pope, or all the bishops dispersed throughout the world teaching the same wrong thing. It is nothing of the sort.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #21 on: October 24, 2017, 01:29:28 PM »
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  • The magisterium as all the bishops and pope (living, authoritative, and permanently instituted [c.f. Vatican I]) is exactly what he's talking about, and you can pick up any theology manual at random and see the same thing.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #22 on: October 24, 2017, 01:40:50 PM »
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  • The magisterium as all the bishops and pope (living, authoritative, and permanently instituted [c.f. Vatican I]) is exactly what he's talking about, and you can pick up any theology manual at random and see the same thing.
    Stay away from theology manuals and comprehend what the pope wrote - the Magisterium is instituted by Christ, as such it is living, authoritative and permanently infallible. It is NOT bishops and popes. They were not instituted by Christ, they are not permanently infallible, they are people. Only Christ (and Our Lady) were impeccable -  why do I need to repeat something so basic?

    Popes and bishops are human, they are elected, consecrated and/or appointed, the Magisterium is infallible teachings, are instituted in the Church by Christ.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #23 on: October 24, 2017, 01:55:00 PM »
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  • The magisterium is infallible not because it is impersonal, but because Christ guaranteed that when certain people teach under certain conditions, they are protected from teaching error. 
    .
    The view proposed by stubborn is not only theologically untenable, it is philosophically untenable.  The Catholic faith in its entirety is a series of propositions.  That we are aware that any of them even exist, never mind whether or not any of them are even true, is owed to the fact that Christ's institution of the apostolic college and the Petrine office (all living, authoratative, and permanent) propose them to us for belief.  But the propositions themselves are not living.  Only things with a soul live.  To say that a teaching lives is incoherent.  Teachers live, not teachings.
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #24 on: October 24, 2017, 02:17:23 PM »
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  • The magisterium is infallible not because it is impersonal, but because Christ guaranteed that when certain people teach under certain conditions, they are protected from teaching error.  
    You offer only more confusion, needlessly.

    The Magisterium is infallible because it was instituted by Christ - that is what pope Leo correctly and literally said, the theology manuals you read should say that exact same thing or you're reading the wrong ones. The magisterium is guaranteed free from error because Christ instituted it. It's not complicated Mith - just read the blurb from pope Leo I posted.

    Christ guaranteed ONLY the pope infallibility under certain conditions - read the decrees of the First Vatican Council. No one but the pope is guaranteed protection from the possibility of error - and then ONLY when teaching certain doctrines under certain conditions.


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    The view proposed by stubborn is not only theologically untenable, it is philosophically untenable.  The Catholic faith in its entirety is a series of propositions.  That we are aware that any of them even exist, never mind whether or not any of them are even true, is owed to the fact that Christ's institution of the apostolic college and the Petrine office (all living, authoratative, and permanent) propose them to us for belief.  But the propositions themselves are not living.  Only things with a soul live.  To say that a teaching lives is incoherent.  Teachers live, not teachings.

    What view of mine? I am referencing Pope Leo XIII, literally. That the teaching, the magisterium, are living teachings means it is always tenable, always pertinent, always true, always there to enlighten. That which is permanent can only be living.
    From the First Vatican Council, here's a new one for you - Divine Magisterium = Christ teachings:
    Everybody knows that those heresies, condemned by the fathers of Trent, which rejected the divine magisterium of the church  and allowed religious questions to be a matter for the judgment of each individual, have gradually collapsed into a multiplicity of sects, either at variance or in agreement with one another; and by this means a good many people have had all faith in Christ destroyed.
    Also
    Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition,and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary [magisterium] and universal magisterium.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #25 on: October 24, 2017, 02:18:31 PM »
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  •  :facepalm:
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #26 on: October 24, 2017, 02:24:27 PM »
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  • I agree.

    How you turn something so clear into something so complicated is definitely :facepalm:

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #27 on: October 24, 2017, 02:35:55 PM »
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  • I assume this poster is talking about stubborn.
    No sede, I posted it but forgot to click the box.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #28 on: October 24, 2017, 02:47:51 PM »
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  • So, yes then.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What Exactly is the Magisterium?
    « Reply #29 on: October 24, 2017, 04:24:40 PM »
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  • Look at the Scriptural bases for the Magisterium, and read this passage of Satis Cognitum:

    But the magisterium doesn't reside in persons. But then he says it does in the pope "under certain conditions." Go figure.
    For Satis Cognitum being one of your favorite encyclicals I think you said, you sure don't even understand what you're reading.


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    Stubborn's theology on the magisterium is indeed a mess.
    Compared to the sede theology it sure is. But it is Catholic, just basic Catholic theology, only a mess to sede's.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse