Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: What do Americans think a proposal is?!  (Read 17776 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
What do Americans think a proposal is?!
« on: December 28, 2024, 03:46:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Apologies in advance for this rant over Christmastide and I wish all a happy Christmas.

    I have been in courtship with an american gentleman for more than a year now in a long distance relationship (we met online). We are both serious, of course. And I was given the impression he is traditional and has good understandings about things and hes a new revert back to tradition. Most recently he came to visit me and all in sudden proposed to me and I was in shock and had no idea it was coming. To me the fact that I have more years in school in another country makes it a Really unwise decision to get married this soon. So I patiently explained all of these to him and asked him to propose again when we both have a good plan and idea how we can manage our marriage and married life. And I did this out of understanding of proposal being a request for my hand and after proposal comes preparation for marriage (ceremony, finding a priest, pre marriage classes, etc.). Yet he took that as a "no," and both of us are in spiritually torment now because he insisted the proposal just means I am willing to marry him and we can take our time to figure out when it can actually happen, and that I didn't say yes or seemed happy means I do not actually love him, vs. I was mind blown and had to think about how we could make it work asap when he proposed, thinking that proposal means we will prepare for marriage right away and get married in no more than 6 mon - 1 yr. So now here we are both emotionally hurt, with he walking away with doubt of my commitment after months of effort to prepare for the proposal and thinking my explanation was only excuses, and I in turmoil of what even happened.

    Offline MaterDominici

    • Mod
    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 5663
    • Reputation: +4416/-107
    • Gender: Female
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #1 on: December 28, 2024, 06:23:56 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sounds like a great opportunity to practice your communication skills. ;)

    I agree with you that a proposal would logically mean you're ready to plan a wedding and marry likely within a year. If you're both on the same page about the need to finish schooling or relocate, etc, I think he could have given you a meaningful gift that you could use/wear to reassure him of your ongoing commitment to the relationship without actually getting engaged.

    I wonder if he was indeed ready for a proposal not thinking that you were attached to other short-term plans (location, schooling). He might or might not agree with you on the necessity of finishing. You didn't spell that out here, but if you've already talked about it and he still proposed, I'd chalk it up to a cultural difference that shouldn't be taken too personally.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #2 on: December 28, 2024, 07:51:35 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have been in courtship with an american gentleman for more than a year now in a long distance relationship (we met online). We are both serious, of course. 

     and all in sudden proposed to me and I was in shock and had no idea it was coming.
    You are really shocked that he wants a commitment after over a year of serious courting???

    How many years is he supposed to invest in the relationship hoping that....maybe some year..... when you feel like it......you might....possibly....become his wife?

    Did you state, clearly and directly, at the beginning of your "courting", that you would not make a commitment until after you finished your schooling? Or were you just thinking about yourself and your plans and your hopes and your wants?

     

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #3 on: December 28, 2024, 07:56:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's totally normal in the Novus Ordo (and secular culture) to get engaged and then only marry a couple years later. Where I'm from, the Church enforces a 3-month MINIMUM (in some places s I think it's even 6?) between engagement and marriage, but no maximum, and it's generally much longer than this. Even when a date is picked, it's several months in the future to allow for planning, and couples frequently take a very long time to pick a date (or intentionally put it off because they know they want x, y and z to be finished before they marry).

    So it's totally believable that he just wanted to express his intention to marry within the next few years. Or he may have even been driven by the opposite - realising that traditional couples generally don't date for several years like secular and NO ones do, and wanting to show that he was committed to having a traditional relationship and wasn't trying to just have you be his "girlfriend" forever.

    Either way, I can't imagine why this should be such a huge issue. "he insisted the proposal just means I am willing to marry" - just tell him this (if it's indeed the case, of course) and explain that you don't want a formal engagement yet as then your family, friends, community etc. would expect a prompt marriage which you are not ready for - as you know you wouldn't be able to relocate to live together for a few years (and even planning a marriage while living far apart would be a nightmare). The two of you could come up with some less formal way of expressing an intention to marry, as Mater suggested.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #4 on: December 28, 2024, 08:31:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sounds like a great opportunity to practice your communication skills. ;)

    I agree with you that a proposal would logically mean you're ready to plan a wedding and marry likely within a year. If you're both on the same page about the need to finish schooling or relocate, etc, I think he could have given you a meaningful gift that you could use/wear to reassure him of your ongoing commitment to the relationship without actually getting engaged.

    I wonder if he was indeed ready for a proposal not thinking that you were attached to other short-term plans (location, schooling). He might or might not agree with you on the necessity of finishing. You didn't spell that out here, but if you've already talked about it and he still proposed, I'd chalk it up to a cultural difference that shouldn't be taken too personally.
    Well yeah, it's most likely a cultural thing because his mind was stuck in how his surrounding people are - basically engaged and never marry for years and years and already live together.

    We have this sorted out, thanks.


    Offline FarmerWife

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 631
    • Reputation: +407/-45
    • Gender: Female
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #5 on: December 28, 2024, 10:47:56 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • A year of courting is getting kind of long and eventually the subject of marriage would have to be brought up. Have you met each other in person? And if you're still in schooling, I don't think it's wise to be in courtship. If you're going to be in school for a few more years, that's going to be a long courtship and he might look for someone else. A courtship of a few years is not a good idea. 

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4147
    • Reputation: +2435/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #6 on: December 28, 2024, 01:09:09 PM »
  • Thanks!6
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Alphonsus says courtship should not extent more than a year because it becomes an unnecessary occasion of sin after that, and that is a sufficient length of time to get to know someone well enough to get married.

    Therefore, people who are not able to get married in a year's time should not be courting at all.

    Offline Minnesota

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2402
    • Reputation: +1373/-647
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #7 on: December 28, 2024, 01:37:28 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well yeah, it's most likely a cultural thing because his mind was stuck in how his surrounding people are - basically engaged and never marry for years and years and already live together.

    We have this sorted out, thanks.
    A lot of couples live like this because they see marriage as solving their problems--  like a supposed band-aid to their relationship issues. I knew a couple like this in high school. They recently just filed for divorce.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47145
    • Reputation: +27941/-5209
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #8 on: December 28, 2024, 01:58:54 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Alphonsus says courtship should not extent more than a year because it becomes an unnecessary occasion of sin after that, and that is a sufficient length of time to get to know someone well enough to get married.

    Therefore, people who are not able to get married in a year's time should not be courting at all.

    THIS^^^.  If you didn't believe you could get married within a reasonable amount of time, i.e. a year or so, you shouldn't have been courting (or being courted) in the first place.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #9 on: December 28, 2024, 04:06:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • For all those who say that if it's over a year they shouldnt be courting, what are you suggesting then, when they already decide each other is the one and truly care for each other? Split up? Stop talking? Go find others? Yes, I agree obviously it's not ideal to have more than one year of courtship, but there are life circuмstances. Some can have a sick family member, need to go fight in war, lose a job, get in debt, get sick, need to relocate or just have other priorities in general during the courtship. Besides, yes courtship is for finding out if one's suitable, but there are other conditions to meet before an engagement. I find it harsh and heartless to suggest someone to leave someone based on those problems, especially given that in today's world it's more difficult than ever to find a suitable person. So if one has to take two or three years to be prepared for matrimony and do that or just be single, is there really anything wrong taking that time?

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5072
    • Reputation: +1987/-246
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #10 on: December 28, 2024, 04:40:22 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Alphonsus says courtship should not extent more than a year because it becomes an unnecessary occasion of sin after that, and that is a sufficient length of time to get to know someone well enough to get married.

    Therefore, people who are not able to get married in a year's time should not be courting at all.

    The apostate society in which we live just assumes that engaged couples are sɛҳuąƖly active, and in all likelihood living with one another.  

    It's also considered entirely acceptable to break off engagements, even ones of many years, because marriage is considered (especially by those with huge temporal aspirations, career goals for both spouses, and so on) as a kind of capstone achievement, to be solemnized once everything in your life is absolutely perfect. 

    Seen through those goggles, a broken engagement is seen as a kind of "whew, glad we didn't go through with that!", and no thought is given to the injustice that has been done to the non-willing affianced partner (assuming one breaks the engagement and the other one doesn't want to) by taking away their chance to meet someone they could marry during all those years.  For a very long engagement, it is then more in the nature of a divorce.


    Offline Gray2023

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 3134
    • Reputation: +1759/-968
    • Gender: Female
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #11 on: December 28, 2024, 05:04:01 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Back to the original OP.

    The man and woman have a long distance relationship and have only been in each other's presence a couple of times.

    I also think the OP said that they figured it out and are doing better.

    These times are unique. If you are local to each other then St Alphonsus' words make sense, but if it is mostly an online relationship, then what should the rules be?
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #12 on: December 28, 2024, 05:15:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    For all those who say that if it's over a year they shouldnt be courting, what are you suggesting then, when they already decide each other is the one and truly care for each other? Split up? Stop talking? Go find others? Yes, I agree obviously it's not ideal to have more than one year of courtship, but there are life circuмstances. Some can have a sick family member, need to go fight in war, lose a job, get in debt, get sick, need to relocate or just have other priorities in general during the courtship. Besides, yes courtship is for finding out if one's suitable, but there are other conditions to meet before an engagement. I find it harsh and heartless to suggest someone to leave someone based on those problems, especially given that in today's world it's more difficult than ever to find a suitable person. So if one has to take two or three years to be prepared for matrimony and do that or just be single, is there really anything wrong taking that time?

    From what was said in the OP, it looks like the OP was less than fully honest and open with the prospective husband about her priorities and plans. It also gives the appearance that the OP gave little thought to the plans of the prospective husband. From experience, I would guess that both weren't as candid as they ought to have been and, most likely, neither of them were really listening to the other. There is no good excuse that either of you were surprised this far in.

    Especially in this day and age, these questions NEED to be dealt with VERY early on, otherwise you are being unjust to the other person and to yourself. 

    I have a pretty good idea who the OP is, though she has not answered when I asked her directly. Assuming that it is the person that I surmise it to be, she has never mentioned to me in months of on and off conversation that she is seeing anyone. I find that very concerning on many levels. To say that I am disappointed with her behavior is putting it mildly.

    I will not publicly reveal her identity, but I think serious self examination on her part is in order. You do not have the right to string someone along. Be honest with yourself and with him, because his life and his needs are every bit as important as yours.

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4147
    • Reputation: +2435/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #13 on: December 28, 2024, 05:33:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Back to the original OP.

    The man and woman have a long distance relationship and have only been in each other's presence a couple of times.

    I also think the OP said that they figured it out and are doing better.

    These times are unique. If you are local to each other then St Alphonsus' words make sense, but if it is mostly an online relationship, then what should the rules be?
    .

    None of this changes anything. If the OP is multiple years away from marriage, then she should not be in a dating relationship, either online or in person. The reason applies equally well to both cases, which is that an extended courtship is an occasion of sin. That's why St. Alphonsus said people should not do this.

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4147
    • Reputation: +2435/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What do Americans think a proposal is?!
    « Reply #14 on: December 28, 2024, 05:36:44 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • For all those who say that if it's over a year they shouldnt be courting, what are you suggesting then, when they already decide each other is the one and truly care for each other? Split up? Stop talking? Go find others?
    .

    Um, how would they decide this if they haven't been courting? We already said people shouldn't be looking for a spouse if they are more than a year away from possible marriage. What you're saying here only proves the truth of that statement, which is that if people begin courting when marriage is a long ways off, then they end up in a bad situation, as you explain here. That is precisely why St. Alphonsus said not to do this.

    Your question amounts to saying, "But if people go against this advice then they end up in a difficult situation." Yes, that is correct. That is why they should follow St. Alphonsus's advice.