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Author Topic: Valid or invalid baptism?  (Read 10320 times)

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Re: Valid or invalid baptism?
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2017, 11:09:31 AM »
I was speaking in generalities.  Logic.  Science.  Facts.  Take your pick.
An outcome cannot be certain when an input is presumed.
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Presumed=converted to morally certain.
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To say intention is presumed is not to say "well, I'll never know, I'll just presume he intends to make a sacrament happen."  To say intention is presumed is to say "Given that men act as they think, and this man is acting in the only way by which it is possible to confect a given sacrament, I presume he intends to act this way, and therefore am morally certain that he has the required intention."
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But to take the "invisibility" of intention and, from that, conclude we cannot be (morally) certain about intention is wrong.  If we are not morally certain about intention, then we can't partake in the sacrament. 
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The reason that the language is that we presume intention is that intention is internal.  We can actually see/hear that matter and form are correct and present, so there is nothing to presume in regard to those elements.  We cannot see intention, we can only see indicators of it (mainly, the presence of matter and form correctly applied). But in the presence of those indicators, we presume that the intention is there, and that presumption itself is controvertible with moral certainty.  So don't let the language throw you off. 

Änσnymσus

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Re: Valid or invalid baptism?
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2017, 11:43:53 AM »
I haven’t studied sacramental theology much so I don’t know about what constitutes moral certainty about the intention of the minister but it seems to me that it should be theoretically impossible for a minister to deceive the public about his intention.  How can you have an intention to not do what the Church does when you have an intention to appear to be doing what the Church does?  The only way I can think of to do that is to not be a valid minister but only to appear to be a valid minister.  Otherwise, I don’t see how a valid minister could form the intention to deceive without actually having the intention to do what the Church does. It is possible to perform the ceremony without intending to do what the Church does but only if you publicly state your intention so that you aren’t actually doing what the Church does.  If you don’t state it publicly then you actually did do what the Church does and even if you didn’t initially intend to do what the Church does, you ended up doing what the Church does intentionally.


Änσnymσus

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Re: Valid or invalid baptism?
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2017, 11:49:21 AM »
I guess you could say there are two intentions that need to be formed.  One is the intention to form the correct intention.  And the other is to perform the ceremony correctly.  If the ceremony is performed correctly then it is certain that the intention was also correct.  The only way the intention could not have been correct was if there was an external sign.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Valid or invalid baptism?
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2017, 12:00:24 PM »
I haven’t studied sacramental theology much so I don’t know about what constitutes moral certainty about the intention of the minister but it seems to me that it should be theoretically impossible for a minister to deceive the public about his intention.  How can you have an intention to not do what the Church does when you have an intention to appear to be doing what the Church does?  The only way I can think of to do that is to not be a valid minister but only to appear to be a valid minister.  Otherwise, I don’t see how a valid minister could form the intention to deceive without actually having the intention to do what the Church does. It is possible to perform the ceremony without intending to do what the Church does but only if you publicly state your intention so that you aren’t actually doing what the Church does.  If you don’t state it publicly then you actually did do what the Church does and even if you didn’t initially intend to do what the Church does, you ended up doing what the Church does intentionally.

Agreed.  That's my thinking on the subject as well. 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Valid or invalid baptism?
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2017, 12:16:45 PM »
Jaynek cited Cardinal Billot on another thread:


Quote
The intention of doing what the Church does, whatever that may be in 
the opinion of him who administers the sacrament, is said to be required.
Thus St. Thomas: "Although he who does not believe that baptism is a
sacrament, or does not believe that it has any spiritual power, does not
intend when he baptizes to confer a sacrament, nevertheless he intends to
do what the Church does, even if he counts that as nothing; and because the
Church intends to do something, therefore, as a consequence of this, he
intends implicitly to do something, though not explicitly."[1] But it is
not necessary that the minister think as the Church does, or that he not
err concerning her teaching; for it is enough if his intention is towards
something which is identically that which the Church intends, or, something
which amounts to the same thing, for example, if he intends to do that
which Christ instituted, or which is commanded in the Gospel, or which
Christians are accustomed to do according to the prescription of their
religion
. (Thus it is apparent how even a Jew or a pagan can have an
intention sufficient for baptizing. Consider for example a catechumen
placed in a moment of necessity, who asks a pagan saying, "Do for me, I
entreat you, this mercy, that you pour water on me, pronouncing the words,
'I baptize you,' etc., with the intention of doing what I myself intend to
receive according to the prescription of the law of Christians.)