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Author Topic: Debate about Sedevacantism  (Read 1153 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Debate about Sedevacantism
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2020, 12:11:43 PM »
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    for better or for worse most of Tradition is in some way indebted to Archbishop Lefebvre, and he taught a looser view of EENS (never denied it.)
    Most of the CURRENT Trad priests are indebted to +ABL, only because most have been ordained by the sspx and/or sspv...All the older, diocesan priests are dead. Going back to the beginnings of Tradition in the 70s, there was a much more grounded orthodoxy (ie priests weren’t as hyper-focused on theories of sedeism/R&R, but mainly on running a chapel and school) because most of the priests in the 70s had a proper, fully formed, diocesan seminary training.  Thy were trained on how to run a church, the “basics”, and they were also taught their LIMITATIONS because they realized that theological questions such as EENS, R&R, Sedism, etc were complex matters best left to trained theologians.  So most early Trad priests didn’t focus on this stuff because it was a distraction from the true errors of the day (immorality, V2, Modernism, etc).
    .
    Regarding EENS, there were many priests of the 70s who had a more stringent view than +ABL.  Let’s not forget he was French and Europe was way more liberal than America in the 40s-60s.  The French/Germans were the ring leaders of Modernism at the V2 council. So we can’t quite trust that +ABL was the bulwark of orthodoxy in all things.  EENS has been attacked since the 1700s, starting in Europe.
    .
    As it is today, 95% of Trad priests have little to no normal seminary training, as compared to the priests of the 60s.  Yet they go around acting like the highest scholars and theologians of the land.  It’s similar to the current censorship on FB, YT and Twitter, except it’s self-censorship and group-think.  Both groups are now just an echo-chamber of their own delusions of theological grandeur.
    .
    How can most Trads be wrong on EENS?  ...That’s absolutely the wrong question.  The real question is....”With the woeful lack of normal seminary training for most Trad priests of the last 40 yrs, with the lack of proper bishops and diocesan structure to help priests, with the Modernist infiltration in the Church starting 100+ yrs ago, with the Protestant “normalization” in America for her entire existence, how can ANY American Catholic be expected to have a proper EENS understanding, except they read and pray much on this important doctrine?”


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Debate about Sedevacantism
    « Reply #16 on: November 17, 2020, 09:03:52 PM »
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  • Most of the CURRENT Trad priests are indebted to +ABL, only because most have been ordained by the sspx and/or sspv...All the older, diocesan priests are dead. Going back to the beginnings of Tradition in the 70s, there was a much more grounded orthodoxy (ie priests weren’t as hyper-focused on theories of sedeism/R&R, but mainly on running a chapel and school) because most of the priests in the 70s had a proper, fully formed, diocesan seminary training.  Thy were trained on how to run a church, the “basics”, and they were also taught their LIMITATIONS because they realized that theological questions such as EENS, R&R, Sedism, etc were complex matters best left to trained theologians.  So most early Trad priests didn’t focus on this stuff because it was a distraction from the true errors of the day (immorality, V2, Modernism, etc).
    .
    Regarding EENS, there were many priests of the 70s who had a more stringent view than +ABL.  Let’s not forget he was French and Europe was way more liberal than America in the 40s-60s.  The French/Germans were the ring leaders of Modernism at the V2 council. So we can’t quite trust that +ABL was the bulwark of orthodoxy in all things.  EENS has been attacked since the 1700s, starting in Europe.
    .
    As it is today, 95% of Trad priests have little to no normal seminary training, as compared to the priests of the 60s.  Yet they go around acting like the highest scholars and theologians of the land.  It’s similar to the current censorship on FB, YT and Twitter, except it’s self-censorship and group-think.  Both groups are now just an echo-chamber of their own delusions of theological grandeur.
    .
    How can most Trads be wrong on EENS?  ...That’s absolutely the wrong question.  The real question is....”With the woeful lack of normal seminary training for most Trad priests of the last 40 yrs, with the lack of proper bishops and diocesan structure to help priests, with the Modernist infiltration in the Church starting 100+ yrs ago, with the Protestant “normalization” in America for her entire existence, how can ANY American Catholic be expected to have a proper EENS understanding, except they read and pray much on this important doctrine?”
    This is fair enough as far as it goes, but then there's an issue.

    I don't think we can have it both ways.

    If this isn't a big deal, but maybe the majority of (modern) trad priests may be a bit off/a bit too soft, OK, all well and good.

    But then people on here shouldn't be running around accusing these priests of "not believing in EENS."

    The interpretation being off might not be such a big deal.  "Denying EENS" is absolutely a big deal since EENS is a dogma.

    So are all these trad denying heretics denying Catholic dogma, or are they, in your mind, just a bit off on a minor issue?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Debate about Sedevacantism
    « Reply #17 on: November 17, 2020, 09:29:08 PM »
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  • There’s no one answer.  It depends on the priest, depends on the day.  +ABL went too far against EENS at times (as has been quoted many times); at other times, he was quite orthodox.  
    .
    That’s the problem with this doctrine.  It’s been attacked so many times over the centuries.  The errors regarding it are many!

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Debate about Sedevacantism
    « Reply #18 on: November 18, 2020, 09:29:41 AM »
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  • There’s no one answer.  It depends on the priest, depends on the day.  +ABL went too far against EENS at times (as has been quoted many times); at other times, he was quite orthodox.  
    .
    That’s the problem with this doctrine.  It’s been attacked so many times over the centuries.  The errors regarding it are many!
    It is a very wide spread issue among the faithful and really is exactly as Fr. Wathen explained it in Who Shall Ascend?:

    "Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject explains the doctrine by explaining it away, as we shall see further on. He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, Extra Ecciesiam, etc., and ends by denying it - while continuing to insist vigorously that he is not doing so..."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse