No offense whatsoever to the other traditional groups out there (SSPV, CMRI, and the independents) but it is the SSPX that gets the lion's share of credit for keeping the Traditional Latin Mass and the valid priestly ordinations alive.  

The FSSP and the ICKSP were formed after the 1988 consecrations.  

If I'm wrong, please tell me and explain it too.  

If I'm right, a simple little icon of clapping hands would suffice.

St.Peter's Fraternity and the other Indult groups do nothing other than what the Society itself did for about the first 20 years of their existence,

That is not true.  They don't have the same doctrinal position as the SSPX.

Well, St.Peter's Fraternity does not really disagree with regard to doctrine, dogma, liturgy or worship,

"does not really disagree" - well, we can't know for sure what they really believe, but we can certainly say they don't admit the same things.  They're not the same.  If they were the same their wouldn't be any disagreement between the SSPX and the Vatican.  

It's worrisome that a traditional Catholic would fall for such specious claims, that the FSSP "really does not disagree" with the SSPX.

Did Lefebvre set back the Universal Indult by 20 years?
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=517


http://irishcatholics.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=tlm&action=display&thread=142&page=13

1. The foundation of Una Voce in 1964, first in Norway but spreading to many countries (only hitting Ireland in the 1990s though) - an international lay organisation which pre-dates the SSPX.

2. Opus Sacerdotale in France which is the predecessor of the Institute of Christ the King. The members of this said the traditional Mass without any interdict or other sanction for years.

3. A parrallel movement in Spain reported in a recent Brandsma Review article.

4. Petitioners in England behind Cardinal Heenan's 1971 indult for England and Wales (the same year the SSPX was only established. Its first priests worked under this until the Archbishop's suspension in the 1976).

My point is that to attribute the survival of the traditional Mass exclusively to the SSPX would be wrong. In the case of point 4, there was clearly a continuity of permission for the old Mass.

Yes, we need a historian of the traditional movement.

There was a lot more than that going on.
There were quite a number of priests who got ordained in diocesan seminaries in Spain as what was then known under the old code of canon law as "family priests". It doesn't exist in the new code but there are quite a few priests from that time still around that say the old Mass in various dioceses around Europe and perhaps elsewhere. Of course the diocese of Avelino in Italy provided another place for tradition- minded candidates to go and get ordained. Several groups, some good, some not so good can be traced to here. Cardinal Siri took several groups under his tutelage. Some were very conservative like the Communaute St Martin while others like Opus Sacerdotal leaned heavily toward tradition.

I mentioned De Pauw because he was so early and independent of Lefebvre, not because I care for him (from what I heard - and I don't know much detail) he was at least quasi-schismatic.

I must say that the extent of what Benedict describes startles me, though I knew about the indult in England and Wales. this may be a problem for traditionalists. THe SSPX have a clear narrative and a central focus on the figure of Lefebvre, and as the original generation who remember what happened dies off this makes it easier for people to equate the SSPX with the whole traditionalist movement.

BTW we could do with somebody recording the history of Irish traditionalism/orthodox Catholicism as the generation who went through the last few decades dies off. So much of its history is being written by the Diarmuid Ferriter/John Cooney types and this is now percolating through the school and university curriculum. So many trads seem to exist in a sort of eternal present, in which we do not remember/record our past actions and so cannot learn from them.

UV predates the SSPX by about seven years, and secondly, Eric de Saventhem (1st president of UV) was a generous benefactor to Mgr LeFebvre from the beginning.

Bishop de Castro Meyer, who began independently of Mgr LeFebvre and who did not come under censure until 1981.

1. The Mass of Paul VI, at present called the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, is the True Mass when celebrate according to the rubrics and with the correct intention. The late Archbishop LeFebvre celebrated it himself on a few occasions (see his biography by Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais of the SSPX if you don't believe me).

d. The 1971 Cardinal Heenan Indult enabled the Mass of St Pius V be said in the dioceses of England and Wales. This was granted before any priests of the SSPX were ordained.

http://thesplendorofthechurch.blogspot.com/2010/09/my-journey-out-of-lefebvre-schism-by.html

Acrogenic Concilium - Reform of the Sacred Liturgy
Quote from Sacrosanctum Concilium calling for the "restoration" of the Liturgy:

Quote:
III. The Reform of the Sacred Liturgy

21. In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. For the liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change. These not only may but ought to be changed with the passage of time if they have suffered from the intrusion of anything out of harmony with the inner nature of the liturgy or have become unsuited to it.

In this restoration, both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify; the Christian people, so far as possible, should be enabled to understand them with ease and to take part in them fully, actively, and as befits a community.

The Apostolic Constitution of Pope St Pius V entitled "Quo Primum," makes reference to the need to restore the Sacred Liturgy. The result of this restoration was the Tridentine Mass.
Quote from Quo Primum:

Quote:
We decided to entrust this work to learned men of our selection. They very carefully collated all their work with the ancient codices in Our Vatican Library and with reliable, preserved or emended codices from elsewhere. Besides this, these men consulted the works of ancient and approved authors concerning the same sacred rites; and thus they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers. When this work has been gone over numerous times and further emended, after serious study and reflection, We commanded that the finished product be printed and published as soon as possible, so that all might enjoy the fruits of this labor; and thus, priests would know which prayers to use and which rites and ceremonies they were required to observe from now on in the celebration of Masses.

The Tridentine Mass and the Mass of Paul VI both claim to be restorations of the Sacred Liturgy. St. Pius V said his Mass was "the original form and rite of the holy Fathers". Sacrosanctum Concilium states the need for the Mass to be restored to something more ancient. If the Tridentine Mass truly was the "original form and rite of the holy Fathers" why the need for restoration? The TLM itself was a restoration.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1630784/posts

Many quotes from Reform of the Roman Liturgy: Its problems and Background by Msgr. Klaus Gamber

http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/07/reform-of-reform.html

Book review of Reform of the Reform: A Liturgical Debate by Fr. Thomas M. Kocik

The Organic Development of the Liturgy by Dom alcuin Reid:

St. Pius V wanted to restore it to the form and rite of the Fathers. However his scholars did not have adequate materials and mostly examined ones that went back to the 12th-13th century and also did so in haste. Consequently, the rite of 1570 still contains a lot of the mediaeval accretions and is not the rite of the Fathers. Since then more materials have come to light and there is better correlation and dissemination of existing materials. Thus the rite of the Fathers that St. Pius V aspired to can be more closely followed. And that is what we will do.

Paul VI wrote:

Quote:
Since then, however, more ancient liturgical sources have been discovered and published and at the same time liturgical formulas of the Oriental Church have become better known. Many wish that the riches, both doctrinal and spiritual, might not be hidden in the darkness of the libraries, but on the contrary might be brought into the light to illumine and nourish the spirits and souls of Christians.

Quote:
Manuscripts in the Vatican Library provided some verbal emendations, but they seldom allowed research into "ancient and approved authors" to extend beyond the examination of a few liturgical commentaries of the Middle Ages.. Today, on the other hand, countless studies of scholars have enriched the "tradition of the Fathers" that the revisers of the Missal under St. Pius V followed. After the Gregorian Sacramentary was first published in 1571, many critical editions of other ancient Roman and Ambrosian sacramentaries appeared. Ancient Spanish and Gallican liturgical books also became available, bringing to light many prayers of profound spirituality that had hitherto been unknown. Traditions dating back to the first centuries before the formation of the Eastern and Western rites are also better known today because so many liturgical docuмents have been discovered. The continuing progress in patristic studies has also illumined eucharistic theology through the teachings of such illustrious saints of Christian antiquity as Irenaeus, Ambrose, Cyril of Jerusalem, and John Chrysostom.

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/appendixa.html

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/04/podcazt-84-st-pius-v-and-quo-primum/

http://stjosephplacentia.org/RCath-L/Val_Mass.htm

http://www.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=185

Did Lefebvre set back the Universal Indult by 20 years?
http://cathinfo-warning-pornography!/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=517


http://irishcatholics.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=tlm&action=display&thread=142&page=13

1. The foundation of Una Voce in 1964, first in Norway but spreading to many countries (only hitting Ireland in the 1990s though) - an international lay organisation which pre-dates the SSPX.

2. Opus Sacerdotale in France which is the predecessor of the Institute of Christ the King. The members of this said the traditional Mass without any interdict or other sanction for years.

3. A parrallel movement in Spain reported in a recent Brandsma Review article.

4. Petitioners in England behind Cardinal Heenan's 1971 indult for England and Wales (the same year the SSPX was only established. Its first priests worked under this until the Archbishop's suspension in the 1976).

My point is that to attribute the survival of the traditional Mass exclusively to the SSPX would be wrong. In the case of point 4, there was clearly a continuity of permission for the old Mass.

Yes, we need a historian of the traditional movement.

There was a lot more than that going on.
There were quite a number of priests who got ordained in diocesan seminaries in Spain as what was then known under the old code of canon law as "family priests". It doesn't exist in the new code but there are quite a few priests from that time still around that say the old Mass in various dioceses around Europe and perhaps elsewhere. Of course the diocese of Avelino in Italy provided another place for tradition- minded candidates to go and get ordained. Several groups, some good, some not so good can be traced to here. Cardinal Siri took several groups under his tutelage. Some were very conservative like the Communaute St Martin while others like Opus Sacerdotal leaned heavily toward tradition.

I mentioned De Pauw because he was so early and independent of Lefebvre, not because I care for him (from what I heard - and I don't know much detail) he was at least quasi-schismatic.

I must say that the extent of what Benedict describes startles me, though I knew about the indult in England and Wales. this may be a problem for traditionalists. THe SSPX have a clear narrative and a central focus on the figure of Lefebvre, and as the original generation who remember what happened dies off this makes it easier for people to equate the SSPX with the whole traditionalist movement.

BTW we could do with somebody recording the history of Irish traditionalism/orthodox Catholicism as the generation who went through the last few decades dies off. So much of its history is being written by the Diarmuid Ferriter/John Cooney types and this is now percolating through the school and university curriculum. So many trads seem to exist in a sort of eternal present, in which we do not remember/record our past actions and so cannot learn from them.

UV predates the SSPX by about seven years, and secondly, Eric de Saventhem (1st president of UV) was a generous benefactor to Mgr LeFebvre from the beginning.

Bishop de Castro Meyer, who began independently of Mgr LeFebvre and who did not come under censure until 1981.

1. The Mass of Paul VI, at present called the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, is the True Mass when celebrate according to the rubrics and with the correct intention. The late Archbishop LeFebvre celebrated it himself on a few occasions (see his biography by Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais of the SSPX if you don't believe me).

d. The 1971 Cardinal Heenan Indult enabled the Mass of St Pius V be said in the dioceses of England and Wales. This was granted before any priests of the SSPX were ordained.

http://thesplendorofthechurch.blogspot.com/2010/09/my-journey-out-of-lefebvre-schism-by.html

Acrogenic Concilium - Reform of the Sacred Liturgy
Quote from Sacrosanctum Concilium calling for the "restoration" of the Liturgy:

Quote:
III. The Reform of the Sacred Liturgy

21. In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. For the liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change. These not only may but ought to be changed with the passage of time if they have suffered from the intrusion of anything out of harmony with the inner nature of the liturgy or have become unsuited to it.

In this restoration, both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify; the Christian people, so far as possible, should be enabled to understand them with ease and to take part in them fully, actively, and as befits a community.

The Apostolic Constitution of Pope St Pius V entitled "Quo Primum," makes reference to the need to restore the Sacred Liturgy. The result of this restoration was the Tridentine Mass.
Quote from Quo Primum:

Quote:
We decided to entrust this work to learned men of our selection. They very carefully collated all their work with the ancient codices in Our Vatican Library and with reliable, preserved or emended codices from elsewhere. Besides this, these men consulted the works of ancient and approved authors concerning the same sacred rites; and thus they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers. When this work has been gone over numerous times and further emended, after serious study and reflection, We commanded that the finished product be printed and published as soon as possible, so that all might enjoy the fruits of this labor; and thus, priests would know which prayers to use and which rites and ceremonies they were required to observe from now on in the celebration of Masses.

The Tridentine Mass and the Mass of Paul VI both claim to be restorations of the Sacred Liturgy. St. Pius V said his Mass was "the original form and rite of the holy Fathers". Sacrosanctum Concilium states the need for the Mass to be restored to something more ancient. If the Tridentine Mass truly was the "original form and rite of the holy Fathers" why the need for restoration? The TLM itself was a restoration.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1630784/posts

Many quotes from Reform of the Roman Liturgy: Its problems and Background by Msgr. Klaus Gamber

http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/07/reform-of-reform.html

Book review of Reform of the Reform: A Liturgical Debate by Fr. Thomas M. Kocik

The Organic Development of the Liturgy by Dom alcuin Reid:

St. Pius V wanted to restore it to the form and rite of the Fathers. However his scholars did not have adequate materials and mostly examined ones that went back to the 12th-13th century and also did so in haste. Consequently, the rite of 1570 still contains a lot of the mediaeval accretions and is not the rite of the Fathers. Since then more materials have come to light and there is better correlation and dissemination of existing materials. Thus the rite of the Fathers that St. Pius V aspired to can be more closely followed. And that is what we will do.

Paul VI wrote:

Quote:
Since then, however, more ancient liturgical sources have been discovered and published and at the same time liturgical formulas of the Oriental Church have become better known. Many wish that the riches, both doctrinal and spiritual, might not be hidden in the darkness of the libraries, but on the contrary might be brought into the light to illumine and nourish the spirits and souls of Christians.

Quote:
Manuscripts in the Vatican Library provided some verbal emendations, but they seldom allowed research into "ancient and approved authors" to extend beyond the examination of a few liturgical commentaries of the Middle Ages.. Today, on the other hand, countless studies of scholars have enriched the "tradition of the Fathers" that the revisers of the Missal under St. Pius V followed. After the Gregorian Sacramentary was first published in 1571, many critical editions of other ancient Roman and Ambrosian sacramentaries appeared. Ancient Spanish and Gallican liturgical books also became available, bringing to light many prayers of profound spirituality that had hitherto been unknown. Traditions dating back to the first centuries before the formation of the Eastern and Western rites are also better known today because so many liturgical docuмents have been discovered. The continuing progress in patristic studies has also illumined eucharistic theology through the teachings of such illustrious saints of Christian antiquity as Irenaeus, Ambrose, Cyril of Jerusalem, and John Chrysostom.

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/appendixa.html

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/04/podcazt-84-st-pius-v-and-quo-primum/

http://stjosephplacentia.org/RCath-L/Val_Mass.htm

http://www.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=185

What a lot of cutting and pasting with no clear line of reasoning - it becomes a hodgepodge.

Let's not forget priests like Fr. Gommar De Pauw, and Father Hannefin (of Father Pfeiffer's area) that kept the faith, and were NOT SSPX priests. There were many more that refused to go along with the changes, that kept their faith and the faith of their congregations intact. Heroic souls that are forgotten.

Let's not forget priests like Fr. Gommar De Pauw, and Father Hannefin (of Father Pfeiffer's area) that kept the faith, and were NOT SSPX priests. There were many more that refused to go along with the changes, that kept their faith and the faith of their congregations intact. Heroic souls that are forgotten.

Another thing these "areas"  are comfort zones.

Come to my area where the most anti-Catholic liberals live.


I walk into restaurant and put money in jukebox.  I picked out Andre
boccelli's Ave Maria,   The Lords Prayer by Frank Sinatra. Some Pavorotti and JOhn Mccormack. Mother Machree,  ..

Any way the Lord's Prayer starts playing an old lady nearby starts screaming out what "terrible horrible music"  Then she went bollistic when the Ave Maria came on as if she was possessed by the devil.  She caused a scene.  She screamed to the waitress to turn the horrible music off that she rather listen to country.

I was so upset .  My husband was totally upset because a man agreed with her. She was such a anti-catholic but she couldn't say anything against italians because it happened in an italian restaurant in an italian town.

She comes to my table hollering at me "so who put on this irish church music.  I told her so " I'm Irish Catholic do you have a problem with it. real loud. ...
I know you are anti-Catholic. ....

She continues to rant, I'm trying to eat my dinner and didn't want to hear church music.  

She was an old hag.  Usually, I don't holler at
old people but she was an old demon.


Then read my local paper a Jєωιѕн man whines about college footbal and claims that all the teams are tie and that he rather watch sienfeld...

Then read the newpaper where they interview a Jєωιѕн woman who owns a witchcraft store telling everyone that a spell is like a prayer.  The worse thing is that she is working with a former catholic priest and
have radio show to promote all getting along with one another.  
 
Never mind that Notre dame is undefeated... and only after monday if they lose will be tied...





   

Quote from: Guest

No offense whatsoever to the other traditional groups out there (SSPV, CMRI, and the independents) but it is the SSPX that gets the lion's share of credit for keeping the Traditional Latin Mass and the valid priestly ordinations alive.  

The FSSP and the ICKSP were formed after the 1988 consecrations.  

If I'm wrong, please tell me and explain it too.  

If I'm right, a simple little icon of clapping hands would suffice.

 

No, actually, your drama and turmoil has caused a split.  

And yes, certain chapels are operated like a occult.  "Don't come to Mass unless you have children."    You can't go to pro life March for life unless you are child.
A parish should include everyone young and old, black and white.  It seems like it is mostly made up rich white former novus ordo catholics who look down on blue collar workers.    

This was not Archbishop Lefebvre's goal.  

And in USA, that is creepy especially since there has been many issues of rape and child molestation.

FSSP and ICKSP all are suppressed and failed.

Many of you spent time in seclusion in your little cliques that you clueless about the Catholic Faith.  Many of you are just a bunch of fake and phony hypocrits who look down on people who don't fit the mold.  
 
When many of us were being vocal against the heresies and apostacies, you remained silent and content  in your little cliques.  This is not Catholic.

And what do any of you do to help the poor?  Many the sspx helps the poor in Asia , phillipines.     Do any traditional catholics help the poor in the USA.  

Patting on self on the back is typical novus ordo....

And I don't want to be part of resistance.

I want to be part the movement.


Shame on many of you.  You all will have to answer to God for mistreating people.

So if a woman who has ovarian cancer or uturine cancer and has no children should stay away from sspx.  Let's see if this restistance is any better.  Or will fade out like fssp and others.