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Author Topic: The Church's Magesterium(No subject)  (Read 878 times)

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Offline David Feeney

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The Church's Magesterium(No subject)
« on: July 31, 2022, 10:53:42 AM »
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  • Hello, I recently had a discussion with my nephew, who has different views than me about the Magesterium. I would like to know how one answers these texts: (he sent this)
      
         I'll answer it. Doctrine is taught and explained to the faithful through the universal ordinary magisterium. Since doctrine is taught to Catholics in this manner, it cannot ever be false. Therefore, not only the solemn magisterium, but also the ordinary magisterium is infallible on matters of faith and morals. This is important, because the Church has defined no salvation outside the Catholic Church, but this, as with all other doctrines, must be understood in the manner taught by the ordinary magisterium of the Church.  


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: The Church's Magesterium(No subject)
    « Reply #1 on: July 31, 2022, 02:49:51 PM »
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  • Hello, I recently had a discussion with my nephew, who has different views than me about the Magesterium. I would like to know how one answers these texts: (he sent this)
     
        I'll answer it. Doctrine is taught and explained to the faithful through the universal ordinary magisterium. Since doctrine is taught to Catholics in this manner, it cannot ever be false. Therefore, not only the solemn magisterium, but also the ordinary magisterium is infallible on matters of faith and morals. This is important, because the Church has defined no salvation outside the Catholic Church, but this, as with all other doctrines, must be understood in the manner taught by the ordinary magisterium of the Church. 
    From what I understand the First Vatican Council defined that the Pope is only infallible when he invokes "Ex Cathedra" and binds the whole Church saying "We define, declare.. etc" and he will usually say something like "May anyone who contradicts this feel the wrath of Saint Peter and Paul!" Or "if anyone says anything against this let him be anathema."

    Now...  According to the First Vatican Council it explained that "the ordinary magesterium of the Church" though not always infallible is always "safe to follow".   In other words, the True Church and a True Pope can never teach error already condemned officially as heresy by another Pope in the past.

    Does that help at all?

    Sorry I don't have all the sources on me right now.  But, I think the First Vatican Council itself explains all this in it's canons and Decrees.  😇
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Church's Magesterium(No subject)
    « Reply #2 on: July 31, 2022, 04:49:25 PM »
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  • Pope Pius IX explains what the Church's Magisterium (underlined) is:

    "Even when it is only a question of the submission owed to divine faith, this cannot be limited merely to points defined by the express decrees of the Ecuмenical Councils, or of the Roman Pontiffs and of this Apostolic See; this submission must also be extended to all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith....." - Tuas Libenter
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

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    Re: The Church's Magesterium(No subject)
    « Reply #3 on: July 31, 2022, 06:04:48 PM »
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  • Hello, I recently had a discussion with my nephew, who has different views than me about the Magesterium. I would like to know how one answers these texts: (he sent this)
     
        I'll answer it. Doctrine is taught and explained to the faithful through the universal ordinary magisterium. Since doctrine is taught to Catholics in this manner, it cannot ever be false. Therefore, not only the solemn magisterium, but also the ordinary magisterium is infallible on matters of faith and morals. This is important, because the Church has defined no salvation outside the Catholic Church, but this, as with all other doctrines, must be understood in the manner taught by the ordinary magisterium of the Church. 
    Your nephew is correct

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    Re: The Church's Magesterium(No subject)
    « Reply #4 on: August 08, 2022, 05:34:32 PM »
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  • Why do we have defined dogmas if the ordinary magisterium has just as much say as the Pope's teachings. Should there not be a final say? Is that not how Christ set up his Church?


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Church's Magesterium(No subject)
    « Reply #5 on: August 08, 2022, 05:45:58 PM »
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  • Why do we have defined dogmas if the ordinary magisterium has just as much say as the Pope's teachings. Should there not be a final say? Is that not how Christ set up his Church?
    The ordinary magisterium is synonymous with the Pope's teachings and Tradition. The Pope can only define what is already in Tradition, and these definitions make their way into the ordinary magisterium once they are taught universally to the Church. Therefore, the Pope does get the "final say" in accord with how Christ set up His Church.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Church's Magesterium(No subject)
    « Reply #6 on: August 08, 2022, 06:08:17 PM »
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  • Quote
    The ordinary magisterium is synonymous with the Pope's teachings and Tradition.
    Yes and no.  Some theologians use the term 'ordinary'; some use 'ordinary and universal'.  It depends what time period you're talking about and what the common usage/understanding was, at the time.  Or it depends on how a particular theologian used/defined the terms.  The problem is, there is no uniformity of terms.  That's why, in our present crisis, none of us can agree on the levels or degrees of infallibility.  It's a mess.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Church's Magesterium(No subject)
    « Reply #7 on: August 08, 2022, 07:18:30 PM »
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  • VI taught that the Ordinary UNIVERSAL Magisterium is infallible when it teaches something as "divinely revealed".  Those pieces are usually left out by the dogmatic SV types who exaggerate the scope of infallibility (as a counter-reaction to those in R&R who excessively minimize it).  As is most often the case, veritas in media stat ... "truth is in the middle".

    With regard to the OUM, we read from Catholic Encyclopedia:
    Quote
    And while for subsequent ages down to our own day it continues to be theoretically true that the Church may, by the exercise of this ordinary teaching authority arrive at a final and infallible decision regarding doctrinal questions, it is true at the same time that in practice it may be impossible to prove conclusively that such unanimity as may exist has a strictly definitive value in any particular case, unless it has been embodied in a decree of an ecuмenical council, or in the ex cathedra teaching of the pope, or, at least, in some definite formula such as the Athanasian Creed. Hence, for practical purposes and in so far as the special question of infallibility is concerned, we may neglect the so called magisterium ordinarium ("ordinary magisterium") and confine our attention to ecuмenical councils and the pope.



    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Church's Magesterium(No subject)
    « Reply #8 on: August 08, 2022, 07:21:08 PM »
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  • This is important, because the Church has defined no salvation outside the Catholic Church, but this, as with all other doctrines, must be understood in the manner taught by the ordinary magisterium of the Church. 

    This is the typical tactic of those who dislike and wish to deny Catholic EENS dogma; they claim that its interpretation is basically the opposite of what the text says on the surface.  It's really a Modernist tactic (sanitized by Trads who dislike EENS) to interpret it away into a meaningless formula, a tautology.  This is a (further) extension of Cekadism.

    Online Yeti

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    Re: The Church's Magesterium(No subject)
    « Reply #9 on: August 08, 2022, 08:02:49 PM »
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  • This is from Canon 1323 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law:


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    All of those things are to be believed with a divine and Catholic faith that are contained in the written word of God or in tradition and that the Church proposes as worthy of belief, as divinely revealed, whether by solemn judgment or by her ordinary and universal magisterium


    Online Yeti

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    Re: The Church's Magesterium(No subject)
    « Reply #10 on: August 08, 2022, 08:04:21 PM »
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  • This is important, because the Church has defined no salvation outside the Catholic Church, but this, as with all other doctrines, must be understood in the manner taught by the ordinary magisterium of the Church. 

    Yes, obviously this is correct. People are not free to insert their own interpretation into definitions of Catholic doctrine.