[Caraffa]

It's important to recognize that these "cultural Catholics" that see Catholicism as an ethnic badge cause serious difficulties for Catholic communities.

Cultural Catholicism, ethnic Catholicism or whatever one wants to call is really just another form of judiazing and as I sometimes say, practical Gallicanism. They subordinate Catholicism to a national or sub-national ethnicity.

[Roland Deschain]

Well allow me to publicly state that I think this forum would be better off WITHOUT Tele's incoherent, narcissistic rants.

[Telesphorus]

Well allow me to publicly state that I think this forum would be better off WITHOUT Tele's incoherent, narcissistic rants.

And this forum does fine without you posting at all.

[Telesphorus]

Do people who approve of a "traditional Catholic" forum run by a Camille Paglia admirer who has publicly committed bigamy with a married Catholic man have any reason to even call themselves Catholic?

[Telesphorus]

Cultural Catholicism, ethnic Catholicism or whatever one wants to call is really just another form of judiazing

Yeah, that "Judaizing" cultural Catholicism was disasterous for Spain. That pesky nationalism with its inquisitions and love of God and country. :rolleyes:

Libtard

Having a Catholic culture is totally different from self-identifying as a Catholic for cultural reasons.

[Caraffa]

Cultural Catholicism, ethnic Catholicism or whatever one wants to call is really just another form of judiazing

Yeah, that "Judaizing" cultural Catholicism was disasterous for Spain. That pesky nationalism with its inquisitions and love of God and country. :rolleyes:

Libtard

Your interpretation of the Spanish Inquisition confuses and confounds the national with the religious elements.

Darn, and I thought that the Protestant Andreas Karlstadt was dead, but apparently his ideas live on in misguided Catholics.  :pop:

[Telesphorus]

As far as I know, no one is talking about being 'Catholic' for cultural reasons (ala South Americans).

The problem occurs when actual adherence to the religion conflicts with the norms of the culture: the norms of the culture take precedence over the Faith and its moral teachings, while those letting the culture take precedence see their culture as the authority for the religion, rather than vice-versa.

This is a big problem among other groups as well.  For example, the Croatians.

[Caraffa]

As far as I know, no one is talking about being 'Catholic' for cultural reasons (ala South Americans).

The problem occurs when actual adherence to the religion conflicts with the norms of the culture: the norms of the culture take precedence over the Faith and its moral teachings, while those letting the culture take precedence see their culture as the authority for the religion, rather than vice-versa.

This is a big problem among other groups as well.  For example, the Croatians.

I know what you're talking about, and it is problematic, but that's not what Caraffa was ridiculing.

Um no, that's exactly what I'm ridiculing.

"And in face of Jєωιѕн Naturalism, we must proclaim also the supremacy of the Supernatural Life of the Mystical Body over the natural life of Abraham's descendants as over every form of national life."- The Rulers of Russia, p. 74, Fr. Denis Fahey C.S. Sp.

[ServusSpiritusSancti]

I should have known this thread would turn into another "pro Tele/anti-Tele" thread. I agree that some of these guests are probably from FishEaters.

[Telesphorus]

Humility has to do with seeing yourself as you are, which is what you need to do

But my humility or lack of it isn't relevant to these debates.  I've seen that the people who criticize other people over humility are typically proud people trying to humiliate others.  It's a way of demanding tribute, avoiding the debate, etc.

. Do you notice that not every person on this website, nor every person in the world is punching the air incessantly to defend something which often times is not even under attack?

I won't be punching the air forever.  But needless to say, the attack is certainly, absolutely, positively real.  

[Telesphorus]

The only reason I am taking you on telesphorus is because your rants are in my view detrimental to the cause of Traditional Catholicism, not because you are some how in the wrong (which you are, in fact, but only in relatively small ways), but that you are overplaying your hand, and doing so from the rooftops.

It is so extreme it almost makes you resemble an agent provocateur sent in to cause disunity and unrest among Catholics. A person who is casually browsing the Internet and who stumbles upon your commentary here would be right in forming a dim view of Traditional Catholics.

The danger in traditional Catholicism is that people are afraid to say what needs to be said.

I'm being attacked for Catholic views, and you're piling on is only giving aid to the those doing the attacking.

If you think my views are more or less right, then support my views, and attack my critics, instead of shooting the messenger.

[Caraffa]

aloof and setting an impossible task to the ordinary Jєω in order to wield moral power over him.

Christ did not come to lower the bar, but to raise it. In fact, the letter of the law is easier than the spirit of the law, yet still serves as its basis.  

Tradition rests not only on letter of Law, but on the overriding principle of Charity. We have no excuse any more to be blind as the Pharisees were. The mistake I see many making is that of being a reactionary to Modernism rather than simply pursuing Christ without letting the world's errors affect one's thinking. The fight is a good fight, but if we don't look after our own souls first we will lose everything.

True, but as one truly pursues Christ, they will naturally have a reaction to Modernism and the Modern World in general. Also, the notion that the Pharisees were upholders of the law is incorrect.

[Telesphorus]

The mistake I see many making is that of being a reactionary to Modernism . . . [instead of not] letting the world's errors affect one's thinking.

I would say the real problem is the opposite of that.  Traditional Catholics who have become too ignorant to understand how they're being affected by the world and how its leading them away from the Faith.  But it's very very easy to take the tack you're taking.  Because that's what people want to hear.  They don't want to hear the opposite.  They are letting the world affect their thinking, but you're turning awareness of that and a desire to resist that into a vice.  A pharisaical inversion if there ever was one.

The last thing traditional Catholics need is to be told to stick their heads in the sand and "pray" - because that's about one thing and one thing only, shutting people up so that those who are hijacking traditionalism and seeking its destruction are free to continue their work without any hindrance.

[ServusSpiritusSancti]

Traditional Catholics who have become too ignorant to understand how they're being affected by the world and how its leading them away from the Faith.

I would say a lot of those "Traditional Catholics" aren't really Trad at all. More neo-Trad, like FishEaters.

[ggreg]

I am sure a pretty good argument could be put forward that Trads who use the Internet are regularly post on forums are not good Traditional Catholics either.

When the Internet first appeared the SSPX were dead against it and critiqued it a much as the TV.  It is far worse now than it was in the 1990s.

Internet is a massive occasion of sin and a huge consumer of time.  I know of Trads who won't have it in their home.  What would they think of you, or I?

I was at an anti abortion prayer vigil with Trads of all flavours just the other day.  I would not wish to judge who was a proper Trad and who was not.  All of them seemed pretty sincere to me.