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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 12:34:51 PM

Title: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 12:34:51 PM
Is there a moral teaching on stealing back something you believe is your property (but actually isn't)?  Need a little guidance.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 12:43:43 PM
Ask your priest for advice.
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Mithrandylan on October 17, 2022, 12:51:02 PM
Is there a moral teaching on stealing back something you believe is your property (but actually isn't)?  Need a little guidance.  Thanks.
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If you're morally certain something belongs to you, you're morally secure in doing any moral thing with it. 
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If you find out later that it wasn't actually yours, I would think you have an obligation to return it. 
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 12:57:35 PM
Breaking into someone's home to retrieve it?  And blaming someone else for it when confronted?
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Emile on October 17, 2022, 01:03:27 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/vfPrra0.png)



(https://i.imgur.com/0ccOxY8.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/Sd211Co.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/XwTGclc.png)

The opinion of Fr. Davis. https://archive.org/details/moralpastoralthe0002davi/page/313/mode/2up
A bit more detail on the specifics of your case might be of help.
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 01:15:52 PM
So when a priest steals a child’s innocence , his leadership should do restitution instead of further abusing the victims and families.   They instead made the victims lawyer up and provided lawyers for perverts.  After perverts are convicted the church stills provides medical and other benefits to criminals and their dysfunctional families.  
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Todd The Trad on October 17, 2022, 01:17:21 PM
I'm not sure if this would apply to stealing or just charitable giving but...

"And if a man will contend with thee in judgement, and take away thy coat, let go thy cloak also unto him." (Matt 5: 40)
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 01:18:54 PM
So when a priest steals a child’s innocence , his leadership should do restitution instead of further abusing the victims and families.  They instead made the victims lawyer up and provided lawyers for perverts.  After perverts are convicted the church stills provides medical and other benefits to criminals and their dysfunctional families. 
:confused:

This sounds like material for a different thread.
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 01:22:51 PM
Thank you Emile.  Quite helpful.  Not sure how to apply the information.  Let me explain my situation with more detail but change identities for privacy.

Years ago my mother gave me a set of dishes that belonged to my grandmother.  My sister believes I took them from my mother's home without anyone's knowledge which I didn't.  I've kept them in a locked storage room.  Unbeknownst to me a year ago my sister directed her son to break into the storage room and retrieve the dishes because she says my mother promised them to her.  There is no proof other than my sister's word that they were promised to her.  The fact is my mom physically gave them to me and my sister has been aware of this fact since it happened.  I learned recently the dishes were missing and I confronted my sister (because she had previous shown envy towards the dishes) and she confessed that her son had done it.  She also claimed she morally had the right to take them because they were hers and not mine.  She NEVER approached me and asked to have them.  She only made snide comments about them through the years.  

I believe her son is guilty of felony burglary and theft because of the value of the dishes (exceeding $1000).  She believes they are justified in what they did.  

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Todd The Trad on October 17, 2022, 01:23:54 PM
Breaking into someone's home to retrieve it?  And blaming someone else for it when confronted?
The end doesn't justify the means. I do not believe you're justified to break into someone's home to get something back even if it's yours. Of course blaming someone else for it is wrong as well. If whatever you took wasn't yours, I think you need to return it. You need to do what you can to restore the good name of whomever you blamed. You should go to confession asap, then do what you can to rectify the situation and make amends. First reconcile yourself with God, and then with your neighbor. 
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 01:24:04 PM
I'm not sure if this would apply to stealing or just charitable giving but...

"And if a man will contend with thee in judgement, and take away thy coat, let go thy cloak also unto him." (Matt 5: 40)

I told her to keep the dishes but I want to know from a moral perspective if it was theft or not.
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 01:29:09 PM
Thank you Emile.  Quite helpful.  Not sure how to apply the information.  Let me explain my situation with more detail but change identities for privacy.

Years ago my mother gave me a set of dishes that belonged to my grandmother.  My sister believes I took them from my mother's home without anyone's knowledge which I didn't.  I've kept them in a locked storage room.  Unbeknownst to me a year ago my sister directed her son to break into the storage room and retrieve the dishes because she says my mother promised them to her.  There is no proof other than my sister's word that they were promised to her.  The fact is my mom physically gave them to me and my sister has been aware of this fact since it happened.  I learned recently the dishes were missing and I confronted my sister (because she had previous shown envy towards the dishes) and she confessed that her son had done it.  She also claimed she morally had the right to take them because they were hers and not mine.  She NEVER approached me and asked to have them.  She only made snide comments about them through the years. 

I believe her son is guilty of felony burglary and theft because of the value of the dishes (exceeding $1000).  She believes they are justified in what they did. 

Thoughts?
I would say.  No. You broke into my home and stole them. How sad that you taught your son to break God’s commandment by stealing.   However, you can have them if you need it so bad.  It’s only material items. 
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Todd The Trad on October 17, 2022, 01:30:47 PM
Thank you Emile.  Quite helpful.  Not sure how to apply the information.  Let me explain my situation with more detail but change identities for privacy.

Years ago my mother gave me a set of dishes that belonged to my grandmother.  My sister believes I took them from my mother's home without anyone's knowledge which I didn't.  I've kept them in a locked storage room.  Unbeknownst to me a year ago my sister directed her son to break into the storage room and retrieve the dishes because she says my mother promised them to her.  There is no proof other than my sister's word that they were promised to her.  The fact is my mom physically gave them to me and my sister has been aware of this fact since it happened.  I learned recently the dishes were missing and I confronted my sister (because she had previous shown envy towards the dishes) and she confessed that her son had done it.  She also claimed she morally had the right to take them because they were hers and not mine.  She NEVER approached me and asked to have them.  She only made snide comments about them through the years. 

I believe her son is guilty of felony burglary and theft because of the value of the dishes (exceeding $1000).  She believes they are justified in what they did. 

Thoughts?
Now That I've read your situation, I see that you seem to be the victim here. If I were you, even though you have a right to be upset, I'd try to forgive them. This would be a great act of the virtue of forgiveness. And who knows, they may later seek to rectify the situation when they experience your loving, forgiving response. I think you have a wonderful opportunity to bare witness to the loving forgiveness of a good Christian. 
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Todd The Trad on October 17, 2022, 01:32:20 PM
I told her to keep the dishes but I want to know from a moral perspective if it was theft or not.
I'd say yes it's theft. Especially breaking into your house. But read my last post in regards to what I think you should do.
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 01:34:14 PM
No.  Don’t pay attention to previous post.  Don’t say anything.  Turn other cheek. Try to repair your relationship.  

Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 01:35:43 PM
With your sister.  After all, it spent much time in storage anyway.  
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 01:36:37 PM
Yes of course I don't want the dishes back but I want the moral certitude that they did steal.  Thank you for your help in sorting it out.

Family...can't live with 'em...........:facepalm:
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: 2Vermont on October 17, 2022, 01:46:39 PM
Here are the sections [1890-1919] in "Moral Theology by John McHugh and Charles Callan" related to Theft and Robbery:


1890. Theft.—Theft is the secret taking of what belongs to another, with the intention of appropriating it to oneself, against the reasonable wishes of the owner.
(a) It is a taking, that is, a carrying away of goods. But theft also includes the receiving or keeping of property, since the harm done is the same as when the goods are carried away. Hence, he who does not restore borrowed or deposited or found objects, or who does not pay back a loan, when he could and should, is a thief.
(b) It is a secret taking, that is, the property is taken away without the knowledge of the owner or lawful possessor, even though he be present. In this respect theft differs from robbery.
(c) It is the taking of property. This includes not only corporeal things (e.g., books, money, jewelry, clothing), but also incorporeal things (e.g., patents, trademarks, copyrights), and even persons if they are looked on as possessions. Hence, plagiarism or infringement of copyright or man-stealing or kidnapping (i.e., the carrying off of another’s slave or child) are forms of theft.
(d) It is the taking of property that belongs to another, that is, of goods of which another person is the owner, or lawful possessor as usufructuary, guardian, depositary, etc. Hence, one can steal from oneself by taking one’s goods by stealth from the bailee with the design of charging him for their value or of depriving him of their use to which he has a right.
(e) It is the taking away of goods with the intention of appropriating them to one’s own possession, use or enjoyment to the exclusion of the rightful owner. Hence, strictly speaking, it is not theft to carry away property with the intention of borrowing it for a time or of destroying it; but these are acts of unlawful possession or of unlawful damage. It is obligatory to take an object from another, if this is necessary to prevent the commission of a crime (e.g., to take away and hide the gun with which another intends to kill).
(f) It is against the wishes of the owner. This refers to the substance (that is, the conversion of the property to one’s use), not to the mode (that is, secrecy with which it is done). Hence, if the owner is unwilling that the property be taken, he who takes it is guilty of theft; if the owner is not unwilling that it be taken, but is unwilling that it be taken without his knowledge, he who takes it in this way sins at least venially, but is not guilty of theft in the strict sense.
(g) It is against the reasonable wishes of the owner or possessor; for no injury is done if he does or should consent to the loss. The owner does consent if the person who takes the goods is acting according to a general and recognized custom (e.g., when a servant takes things left over from her employer’s table, which it is certain the latter does not wish to keep); the owner should consent, if justice forbids that he prevent the taking (e.g., when a starving man is taking food from one who has plenty), or if domestic duty commands that he should give the thing taken (e.g., when a wife takes from her husband’s pockets the needed money he denies his family, for a wife and family have the right to receive from the head of the house support according to their station and means). But the owner is not bound to consent to the loss of his goods from the mere fact that he misuses them to his own spiritual disadvantage, or owes them in charity to the taker. Hence, it is theft to take a flask from the pocket of one who drinks too much, or to steal a book from one who is harmed by reading it, or to filch money from a rich man because one is poor and he will not give an alms.
1891. Unauthorized Use of Another’s Funds.—What is the guilt of one who uses for his own purposes the money of another entrusted to him for other purposes?
(a) There is no theft, for it is supposed that the purpose of the user is to make only a temporary loan of the money.
(b) There is an act of injustice, if the permission of the owner cannot be presumed; for the rights of an owner are violated when one converts his property to uses displeasing to him. Thus, if the prospect is that the owner may never get his money back or that he will lose profits by the use made of it, the guilt of unjust damage is incurred, at least in intention (e.g., a depositary uses a deposit to buy stocks on margin, or a company official makes an unauthorized loan instead of investing the amount for the company’s benefit).
(c) There is no sin, if the permission of the owner can be reasonably presumed; for to him who willingly consents no injury is done. Thus, if one who is managing the funds of another has the chance to make a large amount of money today by using those funds for himself but cannot get in touch with the owner, the latter’s consent can be presumed, if he will suffer no present loss and it is absolutely certain that his funds will be returned tomorrow. But on account of the risk that is ordinarily present, this case would be rare.
1892. Comparison of Theft and Robbery.—(a) They differ in species, for theft contains injustice to an owner in his property, but robbery, which is an unjust and violent taking of what belongs to another, contains injustice both to property and to person. The unwillingness of the owner in the case of theft is due to his ignorance of his loss; in the case of robbery it is due to intimidation or force. (b) They differ in gravity, robbery being according to its nature the more serious kind of stealing; for the robber does a twofold injury, and the owner’s unwillingness to be robbed is greater.
1893. Kinds of Theft and Robbery.—(a) There are many varieties of theft, the differences arising from the circuмstances in which the stealing is done. Thus, he who steals from the Church is guilty of sacrilegious theft; he who uses the public goods for his private ends commits peculation; he who takes from his parents practises domestic thievery.
(b) There are also many ways in which robbery or rapine is committed. The following persons are guilty of robbery: pirates, bandits, highwaymen, burglars, usurers, profiteers, venal judges, unmerciful creditors who deprive debtors of necessaries, debtors who escape payment by fraudulent bankruptcy, profiteers, laborers who extort unjust wages, those who force subordinates to contribute graft, and blackmailers. Two forms of robbery are described in Scripture as sins that cry to heaven for justice, namely, defrauding laborers of their wages (James, v. 4) and oppression of the poor, which happens especially when one denies their rights to those who are unable to defend them. The following persons are also classed as thieves: pickpockets, spongers, smugglers, forgers, counterfeiters, embezzlers, and those who misappropriate funds entrusted to them.
In the civil law theft is also known as larceny, and is defined as the unlawful severance of personal property from the possession of its owner. The following kinds of larceny are distinguished:
(a) in respect to the manner of perpetration, a theft is larceny when the property is taken from the possession of the owner by one who had no possession, whether the latter be a stranger or a custodian; it is embezzlement when committed by one upon whom the owner had conferred temporary possession on account of a fiduciary relationship between them; it is false pretence when committed by one who procures permanent possession or ownership through fraudulent representations;
(b) In respect to the matter or quantity stolen, theft is called petit larceny when it falls below a certain sum fixed by the law, grand larceny when it exceeds that sum.
1894. The Sinfulness of Theft.—(a) From its nature theft—and, much more, robbery—is a grave sin; for it is opposed to the virtues of charity and justice, it is expressly forbidden in the Seventh Commandment (“Thou shalt not steal,” Exod., xx. 15), and it excludes from eternal life (“Neither thieves nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God,” I Cor., vi. 10). The thief attacks the sacred right of the individual to his property, and imperils the peace and stability of society itself. Theft is a grave sin, even when it is committed by little and little, as happens when a merchant gives underweight habitually: “A deceitful balance is an abomination to the Lord” (Prov., xi. 1). The proposition that restitution for a large sum taken in parts at different times is not a grave duty was condemned by Innocent XI (Denzinger, 1188). Canonical penalties for theft include exclusion from acts and offices, censures, and deposition (Canon 2354).
(b) From the imperfection of the act theft may be only a venial sin, for example, when the thief is a kleptomaniac and steals without advertence, or when he is invincibly ignorant that the thing taken is not his own or is of great value, or from the smallness of the matter involved (e.g., when the thing taken has little value, or the owner is opposed rather to the stealthy manner of taking than to the taking, or is only slightly unwilling to lose the goods).
1895. Theft of a small amount may be a mortal sin (see 187). This may happen: (a) on account of the internal or subjective circuмstances, as when the thief intends to steal as much as he can or a large amount here and now, or when he intends to steal a small amount here and new but to keep this up every day until he has stolen a considerable amount, or when a child steals a small sum from its parents and falsely thinks that the theft is gravely sinful in itself; (b) on account of external or objective circuмstances, as when the amount taken today is small but constitutes, with amounts previously taken, a large sum, or when the thief foresees serious consequences from his act (e.g., that the person from whom the goods are taken will fall under suspicion and be discharged or arrested). It should be noted, however, that the consequences of the theft do not necessarily make the sin grave precisely as it is a sin of theft (e.g., in the case just given the theft was a venial sin, but the unjust damage was a mortal sin), or even precisely as it is a sin of injustice (e.g., if one steals a picture of small value, foreseeing that the owner will be afflicted beyond measure at the loss, the sin against justice is small, but the sin against charity is mortal).
1896. The determination of the amount that constitutes grave matter in theft or robbery (or in unjust damage) is a very difficult task, because the factors upon which the injury depends are to some extent doubtful and vary in particular cases. Hence, there is a great diversity of opinion among moralists on this subject, and it will frequently be uncertain in an individual case whether a theft is mortally or only venially sinful in itself. But on account of the spiritual and temporal interests that are concerned it is necessary to give at least general rules for direction that will enable one to distinguish between grave and venial theft, and to know when the duty of restitution is serious, when light.
1897. Moralists are in agreement on the following points:
(a) the standard for measuring gravity of matter is not an invariable one, but will differ according to circuмstances of times and places. Thus, money has much less purchasing power today than it had before the cινιℓ ωαr, and the same amount will not go so far nor last so long in the United States as in some countries of Europe. Hence, other things being equal, it is less harmful to steal the sum of $10 in 1958 than it was to steal the same sum in 1858, less harmful to steal that amount from an American than to steal its equivalent from a European;
(b) the standard for a particular country and period is to be interpreted morally, not mathematically; for it depends on the opinions or estimates of the prudent, which after all are only approximations and subject to revisions. Hence, it would be absurd to draw such a hard and fast distinction between grave and venial theft—for example, to decide from the amounts alone that he who stole $50 is certainly guilty of mortal sin and fit for hell, while he who stole $49.99 is guilty of venial sin only and not fit for hell. The figures given by moralists for grave matter are averages, and hence they cannot be expected to suit each individual locality or moment or injured person. But, being based on actual conditions, they are serviceable. If a sum stolen is much above or below them, they indicate truly the theological species of the sin; if it is only a little above or below them, they afford a basis for probability, or at least show that there is room for doubt.
1898. Moralists are also at one in measuring the injury of theft by the following considerations:
(a) it should be estimated by the property loss, that is, that theft should be deemed a grave sin which in view of all the circuмstances and the common opinion indicts a notable loss on the owner in his property rights. This is a matter of common sense, for every one can see that it is a very different thing to steal a cent and to steal $100.
(b) it should be estimated by the personal injury, that is, by the unwillingness of the proprietor to suffer the loss. This is also clear, since the unwillingness of the proprietor is one of the ingredients of theft, as was explained above in the definition, and everyone will readily grant that an amount which would be notable if stolen from a stranger, would not be notable if stolen from an indulgent parent.
1899. There are two opinions about the estimation of the property loss.
(a) Thus, an older opinion held that the standard should be an absolute one, that is, that the loss should be determined independently of the wealth or poverty of the person injured, since the financial situation of this person is a purely extrinsic circuмstance of the theft. The rich man has just as much right to his $10 as the poor man has to his $10, and it is therefore just as injurious to deprive the former of the sum as it is to deprive the latter. What is a mortal theft in one case is a mortal theft in every case.
(b) A later opinion, which seems to be the common one today, distinguishes two standards: an absolute one, which fixes one highest amount that is always grave matter on account of its magnitude, however wealthy the loser may be, and a relative one, which proposes a scale of lower amounts that are grave matter on account of the economic condition of the persons stolen from. It is argued that a relative standard should be set up, since the injury of theft is certainly felt more by those who have less means to fall back on; and that an absolute standard is also necessary, since without it the property of the rich would not be sufficiently safeguarded and the peace and order of society would be endangered.
1900. Opinions on the Amounts that Are Grave Matter.—(a) The older opinion, according to which there is only one invariable standard for all classes and conditions, regards as grave matter the amount necessary to support for a day, according to his state and obligations, a man whose financial condition is midway between wealth and poverty; for the loss of a day’s support is usually looked on as a serious loss, and a standard for all should be taken from the average. This daily support amount may be reckoned from the amount of daily wages or income. In the United States in 1955 the average daily wage was between $14 and $15, but, if only skilled laborers or those who are in moderately prosperous circuмstances are considered, the average would be considerable higher. Perhaps it would range between $25 and $30. Or if we strike a medium between the highest and the lowest figures given by the advocates of two standards, we should arrive at approximately $30 or $35.
(b) The common opinion today fixes the absolute amount, which is grave matter even when theft is from the wealthiest person or society as the equivalent of a week’s wages for the head of a family living in fairly good circuмstances but dependent upon his work for its support. As to the actual amount, authors differ. Thus, Father Francis Connell, C.SS.R., wrote in 1945 in _American Ecclesiastical Review_ (p. 69): “To lay down a general norm in view of actual conditions and value of money, it would seem that the actual sum for grave theft would be about $40.” In 1946, writing in the _Homiletic and Pastoral Review_ (p. 694), Father Joseph Donovan, C.M., stated: “It is hard to see how less than $100 could be absolutely grave with the chances of a higher amount being probably so.”
  • This sum was criticized as being excessive and did not meet with ready acceptance by all moral theologians. On page 127 of the third printing of his _Outlines of Moral Theology_ (1955), Father Francis J. Connell, C.SS.R., suggested $75 as a reasonable absolute sum considering the value of money at the time, and, as a practical norm, the sum has been acceptable to most confessors and authors. Relatively grave matter corresponds with the amount needed to support a worker and his family for a day or, according to some, the amount required for the support of the worker alone. Relatively grave matter would range from about $5 from a poor person on relief, through $20-$35 from skilled laborers and persons in comfortable circuмstances, to $75 from the wealthy. The latter sum constitutes the absolute standard. For a general norm to establish relatively grave matter, then, an acceptable procedure is to take the daily earning power or expenses of those who do not belong to the wealthiest classes, but who just barely make a living by reason of their work or charity.

Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Emile on October 17, 2022, 01:50:45 PM
Thank you Emile.  Quite helpful.  Not sure how to apply the information.  Let me explain my situation with more detail but change identities for privacy.

Years ago my mother gave me a set of dishes that belonged to my grandmother.  My sister believes I took them from my mother's home without anyone's knowledge which I didn't.  I've kept them in a locked storage room.  Unbeknownst to me a year ago my sister directed her son to break into the storage room and retrieve the dishes because she says my mother promised them to her.  There is no proof other than my sister's word that they were promised to her.  The fact is my mom physically gave them to me and my sister has been aware of this fact since it happened.  I learned recently the dishes were missing and I confronted my sister (because she had previous shown envy towards the dishes) and she confessed that her son had done it.  She also claimed she morally had the right to take them because they were hers and not mine.  She NEVER approached me and asked to have them.  She only made snide comments about them through the years. 

I believe her son is guilty of felony burglary and theft because of the value of the dishes (exceeding $1000).  She believes they are justified in what they did. 

Thoughts?
In justice, I think you have rightful ownership. In charity, it's more complicated.
I personally have had people tell me that they were going to give me an item but then, as time passed, forgot, and gave the item to another. It could be what happened in your case.
I think that it was clearly wrong that they broke into your home to steal them as their claim is doubtful. If they admitted what they did in court, I'm certain you would win (or at least should, I don't have much faith in our legal system :facepalm:).
But there's always Charity to consider:

I'm not sure if this would apply to stealing or just charitable giving but...

"And if a man will contend with thee in judgement, and take away thy coat, let go thy cloak also unto him." (Matt 5: 40)
Is there someone who both your sister and yourself trust (maybe another relative) that would help calm the situation?
These things happen too often after a death, I'll certainly pray for all involved. :pray:

P.S. If you would be so kind, please pray that something like this doesn't happen with my own sister's death.
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 02:44:48 PM
I liked the dishes and enjoyed using them at holidays but if she wants them she can have them.  I am devastated however that my own family would steal from me.  They called me a thief and a liar and knowing I can't have them in my home anymore has made me physically ill.  I literally feel pain in my chest from this betrayal.  And then trying to convince me that I am guilty of stealing from them.  And to have hidden the crime from me all this time....it's too much to bear.
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 17, 2022, 03:11:42 PM
I liked the dishes and enjoyed using them at holidays but if she wants them she can have them.  I am devastated however that my own family would steal from me.  They called me a thief and a liar and knowing I can't have them in my home anymore has made me physically ill.  I literally feel pain in my chest from this betrayal.  And then trying to convince me that I am guilty of stealing from them.  And to have hidden the crime from me all this time....it's too much to bear.
Something similar going on in my husband's family.  I am sorry this has happened to you.  Is this behavior from this relative really all that surprising?  
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Miser Peccator on October 17, 2022, 03:30:27 PM
I liked the dishes and enjoyed using them at holidays but if she wants them she can have them.  I am devastated however that my own family would steal from me.  They called me a thief and a liar and knowing I can't have them in my home anymore has made me physically ill.  I literally feel pain in my chest from this betrayal.  And then trying to convince me that I am guilty of stealing from them.  And to have hidden the crime from me all this time....it's too much to bear.
I'm sorry you are going through this.  It is truly unjust. :(

I've suffered terrible false accusations from family as well.

The thing that helps me to cope is remembering that Jesus suffered false accusations from people close to Him.  They also stole His garment and divided it among themselves.

Well I deserve sufferings and He didn't, and what did He do with His sufferings? 

He offered them up for the very people that caused them. That includes me. :/

So as the pain from these injustices rear their ugly head from time to time, I hold a cross and tell Our Lord:

"Thank you for these sufferings.  I unite them to your sufferings on the most Holy Cross.  I offer them up for my many, many sins and also for souls in danger of the fires of Hell.

I especially offer them up for "Name".  Please forgive them, Lord.  They clearly knew not what they were doing. While my sins were through my fault, my fault, my most grievous fault.  Thank you for this opportunity to grow closer to you and experience a small splinter of the pain you felt."

If there is mental anguish, which can rear it's ugly head from time to time (for you it might be at the holidays when you would so love to use those lovely dishes) then I unite the pain to His crown of thorns and THANK HIM for this opportunity to share in His sufferings.

If I feel pain in my heart, then I offer that in reparation for the pain of the swords in Mary's Immaculate Heart which I know I have caused.

I don't ever feel like doing it, but when I make myself do it anyway, I feel so much better!

It seems clear that your sister has demons attacking her and needs your prayers more than you need those dishes.



Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Miser Peccator on October 17, 2022, 03:46:31 PM
This was a recent talk quoting Fr Lapide on forgiving debts which was helpful to me as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjETfgQqmk8&t=151s
Title: Re: Stealing "Stolen" Goods
Post by: Änσnymσus on October 20, 2022, 09:24:57 AM
If you can retrieve your stolen property without committing further sin, then help yourself.  Make sure you know it is really yours!  If taking it back creates serious problems, it’s certainly proper to confront the thief, but don’t commit sin in taking it back.  If, when confronted, the thief refuses, then your choice is to go to higher authority or to offer it up.  Remember, none of it can be taken to Heaven, so weigh your planned actions carefully.  
I’m speaking here of material items, not things like one's reputation or the innocence of a soul.