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Author Topic: SSPX Sanford Fl - Fashions for this Sunday  (Read 13243 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2019, 11:04:39 AM »
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  • This is not about an occasion of sin for me, it is about the bad example it sets for all of the other younger girls in the chapel, it is a mortal sin for those girls who wear those clothes and scandalize the little ones:
    “It were better for him, that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should scandalize one of these little ones” (Luke 17:2)
    I understand all of that, but you cannot do anything about it, but the priest can.....and should, and might if you spoke with him about it.

    Your only other feasible option is to talk to the girls' parents if you know them. If you don't know the parents, then unless you have the right personality you probably shouldn't talk to them about this because if they don't already know better, a stranger telling them anything is not likely to help matters.

    Which is the reason why I made the suggestion that you sit in one of the front pews, which is about the only thing you actually could do, albeit strictly for your own benefit. Of course you can keep posting your complaints about your chapel here, I mean heck, they are certainly legitimate, but that doesn't really fix anything at your chapel.




     


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #16 on: November 11, 2019, 12:14:49 PM »
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  • A picture is worth a 1000 words. There is no other way to show what they look like except to take the actual pictures at the chapel.

    That's your opinion.  It would be different if you posted ACTUAL pictures of what took place at the chapel.

    But, again, if the immodesty is sinful, you are sinning by posting these pictures.  Your need to VENT about that chapel is not sufficient justification for it.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #17 on: November 11, 2019, 12:26:18 PM »
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  • If just the pictures offend some of you here, you must be living in another planet. Those young girls dress that way at the SSPX chapel because it is “conservative” compared to what they wear every day and what is out there in the world all over.
    LOL. The third picture, the Latina, is a sin against charity.

    It's not about being offended.  It's about your self-contradicton of principles, sometimes referred to as hypocrisy.

    In fact, I'm the opposite of being offended.  As a layman, I consider it little of my business.  If I feel that a priest might be unaware of something, I might bring it to his attention.  Sometimes priests can't see skirt length when the ladies are kneeling in front of a rail.  After I inform the priest, it's the priest's responsibility to do something about it.  If the priest takes no action, then I might raise it with the SSPX District Superior (assuming you go to an SSPX chapel).

    You have been ranting and raving about Sanford for a long time now, as if you're completely obsessed.

    You could simply state:  "Yep, lots of immodesty at SSPX chapels each day."  People then might chime in an corroborate, "Yes, there is."  But beyond that, what exactly is your point?

    Your huffing and puffing about this issues suggests that you are practically obsessed by this ... and that it is YOU, rather than I, who are deeply "offended" in some manner.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #18 on: November 11, 2019, 12:31:28 PM »
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  • Top one is fine. Ideally it would be better, but I wouldn't consider a girl immodest if that's how she dressed. Second is immodest. The third - the t-shirt is immodest, the skirt would actually be fine if it wasn't so tight on her(and I agree, she looks stupid more than anything, she needs clothes that actually fit first of all).

    Now, I disagree that the first one is OK.  Skirt length is clearly above the knee, which according to the Church's standards, is in fact objectively immodest.

    Now, what LOT of people forget is that immodesty, like any other sins, does admit of degrees of gravity and/or veniality.  So, for instance, having an otherwise-modest sleeveless shirt is simply not the same thing as walking into church wearing a bikini.  Some people seem to think that it is, that everything related to modesty is grave.

    So, for instance, the first picture would be venially immodest, while the second begins to approach gravely immodest.  But I don't think you could excuse either of these from immodesty to one degree or another.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #19 on: November 11, 2019, 12:35:47 PM »
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  • Do you have any daughters?

    I ask because the first skirt is nowhere close to “fine”, it is too short and tight. If you compare it to the world, it is fine, but we are not of the world. The first skirt should be loose and 8 inches below the knee. The important point  is that when they sit, the dress should not show what you see showing in the picture. That would require the 8” of length. Padre Pio would have thrown all three out of the confession line.

    Well, except that Padre Pio is not the Church.  What we have officially from the Church is that it needs to cover the knee.  We can speculate about Padre Pio's insistence, whether he considered it sinful, or he was leery of the women who (and I have seen this) would be walking around in a skirt above the knees, and then would yank it down a couple inches just in time to be seen by the priest (getting in line for Communion or something) and then it would gradually hike itself back up.  So maybe he was tired of the nonsense women were trying to pull, and was weary of women who were content with the bare minimum.  He also banned women from borrowing an appropriate-length skirt once they got there to the church.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #20 on: November 11, 2019, 12:40:49 PM »
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  • A few months ago I was chatting with the priest after Mass. He looked over at a young woman and then asked me to point out her mother to him. I did and he immediately went over to the mother and discussed the length of the skirt the daughter  was wearing. I walked away but did hear him tell the mother that her daughter was not to wear that skirt anymore.

    Indeed, the priests are in a difficult position.  Ideally, the priest should designate some older women of good reputation to be the modesty enforcers.  If you're a priest and walk up to the mother to make that kind of comment, this could easily be turned into:  "Why, are you checking out my daughter?"  Then the disgruntled mother would start wagging tongues about the priest, destroying his reputation, for checking out her daughter.  So the priest should delegate this duty to older women who could be trusted to carry out these duties appropriately.  He, then, of course, being guardian of the Sacraments, could/should withhold them from those who are in serious violation of standards, but apart from that he should leave it to the old ladies.

    I say this because I witnessed this dynamic take place against one particular priest, so the young priests and seminarians need to be instructed at seminary regarding how to go about this.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #21 on: November 11, 2019, 01:47:43 PM »
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  • Quote
    If I feel that a priest might be unaware of something, I might bring it to his attention.  Sometimes priests can't see skirt length when the ladies are kneeling in front of a rail.  After I inform the priest, it's the priest's responsibility to do something about it.  If the priest takes no action, then I might raise it with the SSPX District Superior (assuming you go to an SSPX chapel).


     For 10 years the priests at St Mary’s Kansas and  Syracuse have not noticed this problem?  For 10 years the SSPX has been unaware of this problem? Reminds me of the apologizers for JPII, “he does not know about these local matters, it is his underlings who lie to him”.”


    Quote
    You have been ranting and raving about Sanford for a long time now, as if you're completely obsessed.

    It is not just about Sanford, I have said:

    Always keep in mind that these girls I am speaking about have been brought up in the SSPX schools  K-12, so they learned to dress that way at the SSPX schools. The priests have taught them that is is OK to dress that way. This is EXACTLY what happened after Vatican II in everything.

    What is sinful is that this has been going on for 10 years and not a word. What is sinful is that the girls dress like that also at  the St. Mary’s Kansas church of 5000, Syracuse, NY school chapel….  and no priest says anything.


    Quote
    what exactly is your point?


    To save souls and keep these girls from becoming unwed mothers:

    What is sinful is the way these girls think and live 24/7. If they dress like that to mass, the way they dress is just an outward manifestation of what they have learned from their parents and the priests, the ones from whom they have received religious instruction since they were children.  They are a physical manifestation of the “success” of the SSPX schools and chapels that they have been going to. By the dress of the young girls, you will know the work that was done by the SSPX  priest on the parents and the children, TOTALLY Novus Ordo.

    Those three pictures are only the tip of the iceberg, for the girls that wear those fashions to mass, wear short shorts, tank tops, tight jeans, belly exposed, bikinis, go to nightclubs etc. In other words they are just like any girls of the world, except they go to mass on Sundays.  It is not that they are living Catholic lives just stretching the standards, no, they are not living Catholic lives at all except going to mass on Sundays

    Always keep in mind that these girls I am speaking about have been brought up in the SSPX schools  K-12, so they learned to dress that way at the SSPX schools. The priests have taught them that is is OK to dress that way. This is EXACTLY what happened after Vatican II in everything.
      According to Catholic teaching, there are 9 ways of being an accessory to another's sin.
     1.    By counsel.
     2.    By command.
     3.    By consent.
     4.    By provocation.
     5.    By praise or flattery.
     6.    By concealment.
     7.    By partaking.
     8.    By silence.


     

    This is not about an occasion of sin for me, it is about the bad example it sets for all of the other younger girls in the chapel, it is a mortal sin for those girls who wear those clothes and scandalize the little ones:
     “It were better for him, that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should scandalize one of these little ones” (Luke 17:2)


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #22 on: November 11, 2019, 01:52:41 PM »
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  • All of my responses above come from quotes I had already made on this thread, nothing added. (OP)


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #23 on: November 11, 2019, 02:19:14 PM »
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  • It's a tragedy that society at large has accepted immodest styles of dressing. To recover a culture of modesty and purity, the best solution is to look to Our Blessed Mother, Who is always holily and modestly dressed in all Her apparitions. Thankfully, there are many Traditional Catholic women who still dress modestly. When a culture of immodesty is prevalent in some chapels, the best thing for concerned chapelgoers to do is to respectfully and urgently speak to the Priest about it. Our Lady of Fatima warned of immodest fashions.

    From: https://www.salvemariaregina.info/Modesty.html "Be Marylike by being modest -- be modest by being Marylike."

    The stern condemnation of modern fashions by Christ's Vicar shows that the prophecy of Our Lady of Fatima, "Certain fashions will be introduced", had already been fulfilled in the Marian Year of 1954. Especially since, a little over one month later, on August 21, the Pope startled the world by his reference to the modern fashions as "a most serious plague"; and directed the Bishops throughout the world to "take action against this most serious plague of immodest fashions".
    To emphasize still more the seriousness of "certain fashions", Pope Pius XII asked the Sacred Congregation of the Council to make a forceful appeal to all Catholics, but especially those in authority, to "leave no stone unturned which can help remedy the situation." Thus, he repeated the action of his predecessor, Pius XI, who had asked this same Sacred Congregation to send out the "Special Instructions" in 1930 directing that the Roman Standards of modesty in dress (Marylike Standards) be followed."

    See also: http://www.catholictradition.org/Children/immodest-dress.htm
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #24 on: November 11, 2019, 04:55:20 PM »
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  • This is not about an occasion of sin for me, it is about the bad example it sets for all of the other younger girls in the chapel, it is a mortal sin for those girls who wear those clothes and scandalize the little ones:
     “It were better for him, that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should scandalize one of these little ones” (Luke 17:2)


    Well, I don't disagree, in general.  #1, IMO, would be closer to venial in general, but it's certainly compounded by the fact that it was at Mass.

    Is this a systematic problem with the SSPX?  Another sign that the SSPX is becoming more modernist?

    This could have been handled with a, "At the Sanford SSPX chapel, no attempt is being made to enforce standards of modesty."  I just don't think that the excessive huffing and puffing accomplishes anything.  Nor does posting pictures of samples.  Even if you were to post actual pictures, it's one thing that it's happening and QUITE ANOTHER if the priests are condoning it.

    Perhaps it's a misguided prudential judgment about not wanting to harden their hearts and drive them away.  Maybe it's cowardice.  Perhaps it's that the priests aren't fully aware of the extent of it.

    Have you even tried to go to the priest and said, "Father, there are women and young ladies here whose skirts are well above the knee.  Can't you do anything about it?"  I would be more interested in Father's response than in the mere fact that women are showing up there in short skirts.  His response could speak volumes about the state of the SSPX.  Would he say, "you're a bit of a prude" (ala the Theology of the Body crowd) or else "You're right, I need to try harder to enforce the standards." or "You're right, but I don't want to drive them away."  I know one priest who simply responded with, "Well, that's just what the young people are all doing these days."  (Yes, this was a Traditional priest).  This seemed to come from a combination of laziness and a fear of confrontation.  So I'd be more interested in the Father's response.

    THEN, if the response is not acceptable, I would put the US District Superior on the spot, "Father N. said ....  Is this the official position of the Society?"  That I would be even MORE interested int.

    Why don't you track it down this way rather than just venting anonymously here on CI?

    Then I'd tell Father, "Father, if some young man came up and told you that he couldn't go to Communion because he was tempted to a sinful thought during Mass by one of these, what would you say or what would you do?" Would he say, "well, that young man needs to become more pure and toughen up"?  To which, I would respond, "Well, that's not the Church's teaching on this subject, that this is merely a scandal of the weak.  Shouldn't a young man who assists at Mass have the right not to be distracted, much less tempted, by immodest dress?"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #25 on: November 11, 2019, 04:57:21 PM »
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  • the best thing for concerned chapelgoers to do is to respectfully and urgently speak to the Priest about it. 

    Agreed.  Then if the priest does not respond (in word and deed) appropriately, then you should escalate the matter to his superior (in this case the US District Superior).  Then if the Superior doesn't respond as a Catholic should, then I would certainly out them publicly and shame them.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #26 on: November 11, 2019, 05:05:45 PM »
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  • A few months ago I was chatting with the priest after Mass. He looked over at a young woman and then asked me to point out her mother to him. I did and he immediately went over to the mother and discussed the length of the skirt the daughter  was wearing. I walked away but did hear him tell the mother that her daughter was not to wear that skirt anymore.

    If this is the same priest, then he's doing SOMEthing.  But what's the next step if the girl shows up again dressed like that?  I could see the girl wearing a similarly immodest dress, but not the same one, and respond, well you didn't tell me not to wear THIS dress.

    I knew a priest who regularly preached against immodest dress.  For a week or two, things would get better, but then after a little while it would slide again.  First you had one woman test the waters with a slightly short skirt.  When she got away with it, then a few others came the following week.  And within about a month they were back to veritable mini-skirts.  Then the priest would preach about it again.  And this cycle continued for years.  At some point there needs to be SOME kind of actual enforcement.

    On an amusing note, I guess, the primary woman who was always the trailblazer in pushing the limits, the one who tested the waters, got poison ivy all up and down her legs shortly after one of these displays of testing the water and had to wear an ankle-length dress for a few weeks to hide the disfigurement caused by the ivy.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #27 on: November 12, 2019, 06:01:33 AM »
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  • If this is the same priest, then he's doing SOMEthing.  But what's the next step if the girl shows up again dressed like that?  I could see the girl wearing a similarly immodest dress, but not the same one, and respond, well you didn't tell me not to wear THIS dress.

    I knew a priest who regularly preached against immodest dress.  For a week or two, things would get better, but then after a little while it would slide again.  First you had one woman test the waters with a slightly short skirt.  When she got away with it, then a few others came the following week.  And within about a month they were back to veritable mini-skirts.  Then the priest would preach about it again.  And this cycle continued for years.  At some point there needs to be SOME kind of actual enforcement.

    On an amusing note, I guess, the primary woman who was always the trailblazer in pushing the limits, the one who tested the waters, got poison ivy all up and down her legs shortly after one of these displays of testing the water and had to wear an ankle-length dress for a few weeks to hide the disfigurement caused by the ivy.
    That priest described is doing his job, that is what a priest is supposed to do. Yes, he has to do it over and over and over, it is a daily battle, but no hardship. THAT is what this thread is for. That priest is an example of what ALL SSPX priest should have been doing for the last 10 years. They did it before that. 
    By the way, hardship is not being scared of the response from mothers or the teenager, hardship is a priests is risking getting shot by a firing for dressing like a priest in the streets and offering clandestine basement masses. Hardship is having their fingers eaten by squaws or being skinned alive. Any priest that is afraid of backlash is no man.  

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #28 on: November 12, 2019, 06:20:53 AM »
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  • Well, I don't disagree, in general.  #1, IMO, would be closer to venial in general, but it's certainly compounded by the fact that it was at Mass.

    Is this a systematic problem with the SSPX?  Another sign that the SSPX is becoming more modernist?

    This could have been handled with a, "At the Sanford SSPX chapel, no attempt is being made to enforce standards of modesty."  I just don't think that the excessive huffing and puffing accomplishes anything.  Nor does posting pictures of samples.  Even if you were to post actual pictures, it's one thing that it's happening and QUITE ANOTHER if the priests are condoning it.

    Perhaps it's a misguided prudential judgment about not wanting to harden their hearts and drive them away.  Maybe it's cowardice.  Perhaps it's that the priests aren't fully aware of the extent of it.

    Have you even tried to go to the priest and said, "Father, there are women and young ladies here whose skirts are well above the knee.  Can't you do anything about it?"  I would be more interested in Father's response than in the mere fact that women are showing up there in short skirts.  His response could speak volumes about the state of the SSPX.  Would he say, "you're a bit of a prude" (ala the Theology of the Body crowd) or else "You're right, I need to try harder to enforce the standards." or "You're right, but I don't want to drive them away."  I know one priest who simply responded with, "Well, that's just what the young people are all doing these days."  (Yes, this was a Traditional priest).  This seemed to come from a combination of laziness and a fear of confrontation.  So I'd be more interested in the Father's response.

    THEN, if the response is not acceptable, I would put the US District Superior on the spot, "Father N. said ....  Is this the official position of the Society?"  That I would be even MORE interested int.

    Why don't you track it down this way rather than just venting anonymously here on CI?

    Then I'd tell Father, "Father, if some young man came up and told you that he couldn't go to Communion because he was tempted to a sinful thought during Mass by one of these, what would you say or what would you do?" Would he say, "well, that young man needs to become more pure and toughen up"?  To which, I would respond, "Well, that's not the Church's teaching on this subject, that this is merely a scandal of the weak.  Shouldn't a young man who assists at Mass have the right not to be distracted, much less tempted, by immodest dress?"
    Thank you for your opinion, but you do not comprehend the motive or the extend of the problem. The extent - I am not writing here to "vent" about my chapel. I am writing here to expose a problem that has not be addressed at all by the SSPX in the USA and Europe, the two places that I have knowledge of. It is a problem that rose up like 10 years ago and now is common all over the USA and Europe. My area of direct exposer is the USA and specifically the St. Mary's Kansas Church and town where I believe they have 5000 parishioners. The same goes for the school in Syracuse, New York. Sanford Florida also has a school but it is insignificant. What all three have in common is that not a word is being said about the way the young girls and Latina women dress. The Motive, I am here to expose this situation to the SSPX priests worldwide, including Bishop Fellay. This is not about talking to a priest is Sanford. 
    Those young girls just need to be taught how to live the Catholic faith or else there will be no future generations of traditionalist for the SSPX. The clothes they wear to mass is just the tip of the iceberg, the most "modest" clothes they wear all week! The rest of the week they wear the same clothes and do the same things as any worldly girls. The only difference is that they go to mass on Sundays. THAT is exactly what happened in the 1960's, I've been there and done that. 

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    Re: SSPX Sanford Fl - Hooker Fashions for this Sunday
    « Reply #29 on: November 12, 2019, 06:50:52 AM »
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  • The big problem with these “Trad on Sunday for two hours” girls is pregnancy and the consequent abortion, single motherhood, or shotgun weddings. Trad girls are naïve compared to the girls of public schools. They are easy targets.  Do not for one moment assume that the man on the other side of the sin will be a traditionalist or a young boy.


    Trad girls have been taught that the use of contraceptives is a mortal sin, so they do not (at least initially) use contraceptives  and they will inevitable end up pregnant.  It is easy to hide the initial kissing, then the next step and the next till the act is finalized.  The bottom line is that the immodest  Sunday clothes are just revealing a problem in the way they live and the priests need to open their eyes to the fact that they have not been doing their job when it comes to the youths. 
     

    Keep in mind that the priests also see how the girls dress during the week when they go to the houses or go about town.


    Parents  and Priests – if your daughters dress provocatively, it is a bad sign, and the result will be pregnancy. This is not just about  fashion and a few more inches of cloth on a skirt.